Growth = What??????
Remote Viewer asked a number of interesting questions, but lets take them one at a time. What is growth? in the labor movement(your Union); on this website; for workers. The easiest seems very measurable. How does this site go from 220 registered to 2000 or 20,000? What would you want your Union to do to be more responsive? Can the workers who come to this site draft a list of reasonable(thats a debate of unto itself) expectations for their leadership to meet. Can you network members from across the US and Canada to build an energy that forces leadership to listen? (and change).
These are just some very basic questions that are at the core of reinventing the labor movement. I guess it goes back to RV's question, do you want to evolve to something better, or is a revolution the answer?
Weekend Buzz: R-evolution
Talking about R-evolution
Each week there is a lot of thought-provoking discussion in MFD forum. Last night, after a week that was heavy on corruption and bad news, a couple of our regular contributors outdid themselves, with this brief and insightful exchange.
"We call each other "brother or sister" I certainly don't treat my brother or sister the way I see members treating each other. Signing contracts that let you keep yours while the new hires are prevented from getting the same. Think about it...you just sold out your children and their future. How are they going to raise your grandchildren?
What disappoints me is that we've all become a mirror image of our employers. Greedy, self serving and selfish. For the past 15 yrs we've all voted on contracts that have taken from the new hires in order to keep what others fought so hard to provide for us. We've neglected our union and allowed opportunistic despots to seize control and pattern it after the very institutions it was formed to fight against. In the war on corporate greed we've lost in the worst way because we've all become the enemy. If we are ever going to turn it around we are all going to have to start thinging about the person working next to us and not just ourselves." - Scott McPherson
"What's so exciting about your words is there is hope to rebuild that which we've lost. As a society, we thrive on greed. Enough is never enough. I know it exists, and i know we can change it. When the labor movement (leadership and membership) comes to grips with this being about us and we, not I and me, we will have workers fighting to get in. So Scott, thanks for your thoughts. I can't think of a more appropriate way to celebrate this holiday (holy day) than for each of us to begin to imagine what we can do to make this space we take up a little bit better for one another." - Bill Pearson
At this time of year, when our thoughts turn to renewal, growth, evolution, Bill and Scott have provided us with a starting point for the discussion we need to have about rebuilding our labour movement. Whether you lean towards revolution or evolution, building on what we have or starting over, let's talk about what we want and how we can get there. Let's talk about OUR evolution.
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let's talk about what we want and how we can get there
Off the top?
Pertinent member education - Directing Education Funds in the right direction.
Local autonomy - Give the Power Source control over their specific bargaining needs.
Industry specific locals - Geared toward specialized bargaining. (Away from super-unions.)
Union is suppossed to be togetherness rather than selfishness!
Damn the self serving scum who hide behind unionisms purposes!
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These are just some very basic questions that are at the core of reinventing the labor movement. I guess it goes back to RV's question, do you want to evolve to something better, or is a revolution the answer?
To me the important thing is drawing workers into the discussion. Eventually, the answers to the questions, including the big one - evolution or revolution - will come from those who engage in the discussion.
I think that part of the problem is that people are so used to the old leader-and-followers model. So a lot of people are sitting around waiting for somebody to emerge who will lead them. I'm not sure that that's the model that will work best for us, considering all the obstacles (time, distance, cultural barriers and so on). Maybe the best thing is for us all to be leaders, not necessarily in the conventional sense (where we have a bunch of followers) but in the trail blazing sense: We can each take advantage of opportunities that arise in our lives, in our workplaces, in the circles we move in, to advance the cause of the betterment of the community of workers. And each time we do something to advance that cause, however large or small,we can come here and tell others about what we've done, what happened, and what it means to us and others.
Since I started visiting this site, I've made it a point to - every day no matter what I'm doing - to do something that advances our cause. This can be something as small as posting a brief comment in this forum or taking a few minutes to think about some question about union democracy that has been plaguing me in the hope of coming that much closer to an answer. On days when I have more time or feel more motivated, it may be something more substantial. But whatever it is, I am hopeful that one way or another, every action and interaction helps, gets others thinking, maybe even inspires others.
Hey, here's my good deed for tomorrow: Like a lot of people, I'll be making the Easter Sunday pilgramage with my kids to Grandma's house, in a city a few hours drive from Toronto. En route, we are going to visit a picket line at a struck manufacturing facility in a community along the way. Why? Well, when I was about 10 years old my father took me to his picket line and, even though I wasn't consciously aware of it at the time, it left a big impression on me. To tell you all the truth, it made a shitdisturber out of me.
I told a few of my colleagues about my Easter Sunday plan - including some who consider themselves very pro-labour - and they all think I'm nuts: "Why would you expose kids to such things?" is what I've been asked. Yikes!
My motive is simple: How are we going to pass on our values to the next generation if we rely almost exclusively on the biz-crowd to provide them with the images, symbols and experiences that will shape their thinking about themselves and their communities?
To me, encouraging people to do what they can, where and when they can and telling the rest of us about it is an important step in getting to where we want to go.
Cheers to educating the kids R.V. I applaud you CLAP CLAP!
My dad too showed me the good the bad and the ugly! Education never stops
nor shall it ever start too early! 
Right on rv. We need to make the circle bigger.Touch one person today and tommorow there is two of you. The capacity to grow is unlimited with the internet. One of my favorite movies was Field Of Dreams; of course the best line was "build it, and they'll come." Our goal shifts a little to change it and they'll come. That's where the power of the net comes. Imagine what happens when workers from around North America use their collective ideas to drive the changes. I'm sure most of us look to see who is on line. I note there is often a number of guests. Wouldn't it be great if they started sharing their thoughts more freely.
To Siggy's point on pertinent worker education------what might that be? Best technique in the world is, ASK THEM. So, what happens when this site becomes the place where workers help craft those decisions? Do Union leaders listen or does the site become its own on line education system? It doesn't end there. How about we start comprising a best practices page where we compile what workers Unions do well. It can become the place where union leaders can learn first hand what workers want and expect. The list is almost endless, assuming we can grow the participation on this site. Thats a discussion for another time.
The reason this all works so much better here than most Union sites is because there is an openess that most unions fear. Look, no-one wants to lose their job, so as workers get educated and involved, leaders will be pushed to be more effective. That's a good thing. Ultimately, members involved and leaders being more responsive will grow the movement. If in the end they stay in office it will be because members want them there. That's the way it should work.
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How about we start comprising a best practices page where we compile what workers Unions do well. It can become the place where union leaders can learn first hand what workers want and expect.
Heh?
Union leaders should ask their members what they want and expect. Not consult some archive of heart-warming union tales.
As siGGy pointed out, specific regions have specific bargaining wants and needs. So, as you said yourself, "ASK THEM".
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Ultimately, members involved and leaders being more responsive will grow the movement. If in the end they stay in office it will be because members want them there. That's the way it should work.
I agree.
As long as the "leaders'" responsiveness isn't in the form of frivolous lawsuits. 
Remote your idea is incredable. My dad did the same for me when I was about my son's age and it had a profound impact on me. It was very powerful.
I believe in education. Remote's example is where each of us should start. Unionism isn't a membership in an exclusive club, it's a set of values and beliefs passed down to us that we live by. I believe unions have a responcibility to not only serve the members of their respective unions but also a duty to improve the lives of the entire community. The leukemia drives are a start in the right direction but it's not enough. We need to do more.
Further, union training programs should provide members with effective tools to deal with situations that arrise in the workplace, at home and in the community. I've taken the basic and advanced shop steward courses and learned very litte about how to be a better shop steward and nothing on how to be a better person. It's mostly a pom pom course on how great the union and it's current leaders are.
Shop stewards deal with conflict on a daily basis, our education should focus on how to effectively deal with those conflicts. How to communicate points of view rather than just stating positions and how to be assertive without being agressive etc. WE should be teaching stewards about the collective agreements, collective bargaining, the constitution and various labour codes.
Our stewards should be able to challenge the exams for a labour relations certificate after enough coarses. They should be able to communticate with management and police the collective agreement without giving up the farm or starting world war three. We should also open up our coarses to all employees, even those who aspire to become managers. Teaching these kinds of skills to prospective managers over time might help to limit the number of despotic overloads many of us have had to deal with over the years. For years our union leaders have been looking through the eyes of our employers, through education we can reverse that tide and one day have employers seeing the world through our eyes because it's our education that gave them the tools to stand out and be hired as managers in the first place.
Union education should be about creating leaders. Not just union leaders but community leaders, family leaders, workplace leaders and political leaders. It should be about shaping our future with minds that care first and foremost about the people around them and not just the not so almighty dollar.
Could not have said it any better.
It is ironic that although we are in different union that the same theme flows. Union education taught to members is far below par.
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I've taken the basic and advanced shop steward courses and learned very litte about how to be a better shop steward and nothing on how to be a better person. It's mostly a pom pom course on how great the union and it's current leaders are.
Scott M
I am sure that this second rate education is deliberate status quo strategy. Keep the masses uneducated and "we the rulers" shall continue to rule as we please. No R-evolution here.
If we really knew the letter of the law, would we need as many highly paid National Representatives or as many unions lawyers who do not have the time of day for any of our questions if you can even break through the communications barriers to them! If the status quo unions are not going to teach us who is??
Just as members get upset when they learn about huge wages and frequent perks, so do members when they find out what the laws really are. I believe the R-evolution will come. Educating members by the masses, I believe will help move members sentiment faster and I think the "status quo" unions know it. Why do you think they teach 1980 watered down water fountain talk.
If it becomes a revolution, people who claim to a part of the change will be found out and treated no differently than the other unscrupulous union leaders. A revolution will have no mercy for fence sitters. If people do not trust who walks in the shadows of a new ideology, so too shall these shadow walkers be thrust back into darkness.
For me, anyone who dilebertely deceives another especially in a position of power is not one whom I will trust nor respect, nor do I want them walking in my shadow. To me they have are not committed to the R-evolution.
ABOUT UNIONS
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If we really knew the letter of the law, would we need as many highly paid National Representatives or as many unions lawyers who do not have the time of day for any of our questions
I'm glad you brought that up. No...simple as that. The UFCW spends over 75% of it's income on wages, benefits and expences for it's staff. That's absolutely unacceptable. The fear of God I could put into the hearts of politicians and employers alike with just one term in Dority's position would dumbfound the entire movement.
I've outlined my ideas on restructuring the union before. I could re-post them if anyone is interested... Bill mentioned in another thread about trustees attending the posh trips. He must have a reason and I'd like to hear what it is. More details Bill, remember we don't go to these ourselves we only pay for them. If you really believe in them convince us. [or try to anyway]
Let me start with the obvious bone of contention...why the sunny gettaways?
Scott: I'd answer the question, but frankly, i'm tired of the backdoor bull from some of the players. I keep turning the other cheek, but enough is enough.
I came to this site because of an attack on a program we were running. I've tried to add to the discussions, without ripping some of the inane crap dribbling from some of the posts. I thought most of you were serious about trying to rebuild or re-invent the labor movement. It's obvious I was wrong. If i was a worker who came to this site i'd leave with the belief i should never ever become a Union member, anywhere. That's a tragedy, and a diservice to workers.
Our local has done almost all of the things you say Unions should do. Here's the simple truth, there's a number of members who hate my guts. There's members who don't like paying dues. The amazing fact is this, they have the ability to speak out(to piss and moan) because of the Union. In non-union settings they would just get fired, or keep their mouth shut.
I thought this site had the potential to be so much more than a tiny number of workers angry at the world. What is it you believe in? I know what my beliefs are: I live them evey day and more importantly, i put them into practice, i don't just talk it, i bring it.
It's too bad, i thought there was a value in my being here. Apparently, that's not the case. I was willing to pay the price, but i'm not interested in the cheap shots, and the the never ending rhetoric. At some point you have to decide what you are doing. Are you here to build something or just to tear it down?
I'm here to ask questions. If you can't handle the tough ones, that's your problem. Not mine.
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i don't just talk it, i bring it.
Prove it. Do something.
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Are you here to build something or just to tear it down?
Step one: Convince the owners that it needs to be rebuilt.
Step two: we haven't reached this stage yet.
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If i was a worker who came to this site i'd leave with the belief i should never ever become a Union member, anywhere. That's a tragedy, and a diservice to workers.
What's a disservice is not recognizing that it isn't this site or any other site which keeps them away in droves. That tragedy and disservice happened long before we started talking about it.
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I came to this site because of an attack on a program we were running. I've tried to add to the discussions, without ripping some of the inane crap dribbling from some of the posts
You aren't the only one who has had to duck cheap shots!
I am disappointed that you can't stay and take the heat Bill, but if you gotta go then you gotta go!
Bill, your contributions here have been very valuable and I'm hoping that you stay around. I'm a little surprised at your reaction to Scott's post. I don't read anything all that inflammatory in what Scott wrote. I read his comments as an attempt to begin a discussion about the use of union resources (money, staff, etc.) There may be some sensitivity around this and we have undoubtedly been harshly critical of how resources are being used by certain unions, however, if we're to talk about rebuilding unions, it's an area that seems to me to be ripe for discussion. How can we make better use of our resources? is how I read the post.
I think we need to recognize that we're all after the same thing here but, given where we've come from and what we're doing, we're going to press each other's buttons on occasion - sometimes inadvertently. Let's keep our eyes on the ball.
Easy Bill, I wasn't taking a shot at you, really. If you value the trips tell us why. We've heard the rhetoric, now tell us some reasons. As for my restructuring it's not rhetoric. I would slash the budget and redirect our resources back into the members pockets. Again it can be done, and it should be done. The question is will it be done.
I don't believe in top heavy organizations, unions or companies. 75% is unacceptable. It's bad business. If even 10% of that was in a strike fund employers would think twice.
Scott: This has nothing to do with your question. There's yet to be one i've been unwilling to try and answer. You are one of the reasons i've stayed on here, you clearly get it. I won't go into what's been said, you only have to read the posts. There are several of you who appear to want to take this site to a higher level. It's the ones who continue to revert to the cheap shots, that leave me no choice.
To Siggy's point, i love the heat, i hate the pettiness. I don't have the time or the inclination to play that game. I've spent my life trying to give workers a little dignity and respect. It just seems to fly in the face of logic to disrespect workers (or leaders) here for employers to use against us.
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To Siggy's point, i love the heat, i hate the pettiness.
What do you regard as pettiness? Members who find it difficult to put their faith in an institution (that's what our leaders call it) that has taken us where we don't want to go? You pride yourself on being upfront then be more specific.
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I don't have the time or the inclination to play that game.
It's not a game. It is our workplace, our living standards, our dignity, our rights!
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I've spent my life trying to give workers a little dignity and respect.
You can't take all the credit. There are some folks here who have spent a good deal of their time looking out for the other guy. They've done it without a platform and a small locals funding. If it's a pat on the back you want I think this site has pretty much done that. If it's pretty union talk, you might be in the wrong place. (Come back in awhile after we've changed it. 
)
Your continuous spiel about the discussion on this site having devastating effects on the movement as a whole are simply unfounded. IMHO .
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It just seems to fly in the face of logic to disrespect workers (or leaders) here for employers to use against us
Where is there disrespect for workers? You said it where is the proof?
The leaders get the respect they've earned!
Bill you seem bound and determined to colour what is said here. When you say it it's because you are straight up and won't do it any other way. Afford us the same privilege please. We won't always talk nice about the leaders but some of the things they do aren't nice, the only other option would be not to talk.
With all due respect. siGGy
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There's yet to be one i've been unwilling to try and answer.
That's such bullshit! You haven't taken a firm position on anything. Instead you've provided us with a steady diet of feel-good propaganda disguised as action. Your web site is overwhelming proof of that fact.
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It's the ones who continue to revert to the cheap shots, that leave me no choice.
Why don't you just go ahead and say my name Bill. I don't mind.
For everyones perusal, here's the thread that broke Mr. Pearsons' back.
Once again it appears our "leaders" think they are beyond criticism.
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i love the heat, i hate the pettiness.
It's called "debate" Bill. Although, considering your position and the history of your union, I can see why it makes you feel uncomfortable... you know, never having to do it before. 
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I don't have the time or the inclination to play that game.
I rest my case. You might as well have said - Out Of Order!
From looking at the thread you referenced, slek, it seems to me you both were taking shots at each other. Funny thing, too, since you both purportedly agreed on the topic - its bad for employers and union officers to abuse their control over members' trust funds.
Personally I think that the lack of face-to-face contact in this electronic board sometimes makes it too easy for people to get snippy with each other. But hey, you have to take the good with the bad.
Bill, if you go you'll be missed. I think your contributions have been valuable. It was always rather unfair for you to have to wear the big "UFCW establishment guy" target all by yourself. But part of that's the fault of your fellow union presidents, who've never bothered to show up here in the first place. And as a result, there's a lot of legitimate questions going unanswered about the way they're running their unions.
Sorry Slek, you give yourself too much credit. From the day I came here, you 've disliked my presence. I've come to accept that. You usually just sit in the background and add your shots. I've chalked it up to trying to stimulate the "debate". I do find it curious that you critisize what I do for a living, and you act like running a web site with a handful of followers is the labor movements salvation. It's not, it's a tool to do some neat things. Unfortunately you were destined to the same fate that REAP suffered. Make some noise and fade into obscurity. I hoped we could move this to a higher level. But lets face it, its your site and its your rules. When the cheap shots come, I can ignore them or shoot back. I choose not to do that. If you think ripping people and insulting people is debate, then we have a different perspective on what legitimate discussion is.
You are right about one thing,i like the feel good stuff. I found positive energy is infinately more effective than all the negative poor me syndrome. You can tell me what a failure i am in the way i run local 789, but the vast majority of the members would disagree with you. If you truly believe in members having the final say, then their opinion is infinately more important than yours.
Brother Bill
I do not belong to your union, but as I am sure you have assumed, I have reservations about your philosophical approach.
Start a website based petition here or on your page to protest to your International Union about what they are doing to this web site and put your name behind it and I will be behind you. I will be the first to sign it.
ABOUT UNIONS
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From the day I came here, you've disliked my presence.
Nope. I've welcomed your presence. I only take issue with the things you (don't) say.
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and you act like running a web site with a handful of followers is the labor movements salvation.
We have the potential to have a bigger impact upon the labour movement as a whole, collectively, than you do with your local. And we could do this with one one thousandth of the resources you have at your disposal.
Like I've said before Bill. Do something. Put your ass on the line. Make a difference. Put your resources to *actual* work instead of to propagandizing youth.
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Unfortunately you were destined to the same fate that REAP suffered. Make some noise and fade into obscurity.
Bahhh, what are you Nostradamus now? A union prophet? We're just getting started.
Oh! And who's the King of cheap shots now?
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If you think ripping people and insulting people is debate, then we have a different perspective on what legitimate discussion is.
Discussion? You have yet to take part in such a thing. You've avoided almost every contentious point anyone has made to you.
Scott asked you a question above. Did you answer it? No. You went off on a pathetic tirade about how we're so destructive.
Answer the questions Bill. Earn some respect. Maybe then members can believe in you and your vision of the movement.
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You are right about one thing,i like the feel good stuff.
Feel good stuff doesn't answer the questions nor address the concerns.
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You can tell me what a failure i am in the way i run local 789, but the vast majority of the members would disagree with you. If you truly believe in members having the final say, then their opinion is infinately more important than yours.
And this has to do with what?
I've never said anything about how you run your local. Are you a spin doctor and a prophet now?
If you're going to leave, leave. If you're going to stick around, be prepared to get called out on the things you do (or don't) say.
Bill, perhaps you've missed the congratulations you have recieved for taking the high road. You've taken shots and been given shots, you've provided many valid points. Your presence has made a big difference to the discussions here. You are an example that all union leaders aren't "machine heads".
Do you think that if a really nice and noble employer came to this site and showed all the nice things he does for workers and if he could prove that his only motivation was the welfare of working folk that unionists would abandon their fight against all employers?
Bill, maybe you've had a rough day or two. Things seem a bit dark for you right now. I hope you feel better in the morning.
You hold a lot of respect with many who visit this site. No one agrees with everything I say, but I keep comming back. I hope you do too.
And who was it that said we have to have face to face. You can feel the emotions and the tension.
And all on the web. All of us look at all the dialague we have created. People could not post fast enough. I think we are making progress. With out debate there is no chance of change. Believe it or not,this is tame compared to what I have experienced in face to face conflict in union
local meetings of our own fellow brothers and sister.
ABOUT UNIONS
Whether Bill realizes it or not in this last exchange I have experienced exactly what I experience at GMM's. A valid question is asked and before you know it the discussion is diverted away from the point to the pointer(s). If someone can explain how it got from Scott's question to a scathing attack .. you tell me!
Scott asked:
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Let me start with the obvious bone of contention...why the sunny gettaways?
Bill answered:
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There's yet to be one i've been unwilling to try and answer.
Then answered again:
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Scott: I'd answer the question, but frankly, i'm tired of the backdoor bull from some of the players.
I'm really tired of the back door bull too! and damn it Bill you almost had me believing. A few quotes to jar your memory. The inconsistencies are relevant and evident, some are out of context the way you like and all are dissected the way you don't.
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The reason this all works so much better here than most Union sites is because there is an openess that most unions fear
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Words mean very little without action
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I sensed an amount of venom dripping from your post
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I just couldn't resist the shot
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It's always nice to see how thin(or thick) skinned people are
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i tend to be as blunt and as straightforward as i am here.Trying to change stripes and be something you are not really never works very well
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They know my work ethic is strong and i'm a trade unionist even if i am a pain in the ass
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i've found the internet to be an incredibly powerful tool to bring workers together
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Take it easy, i'm not being critical, just honest.
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I have noticed a consistent theme of disecting individual sentences.I've found it's easier to take things out of context that way than to deal with the overall phylosophy or position.
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It's the denial that I don't get.
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The challenge for everyone is to never give up
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I don't expect a free ride, but do'nt look for a pass when i see a little hypocracy.
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As Slek pointed out so masterfully, there were parts of the contract we didn't like
and finally ..
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Sorry Slek, you give yourself too much credit
No Bill we give sleK the credit and every bit of it earned! Sometimes the truth hurts!
Weiser: I feel great. A little confrontation is a good thing. I have noted the congratultions, and hopefully others who visit here see there are ways to do things beyond the same old tired text books. I am confused though. Slek says i haven't added anything but feel good bullshit, but several of you have said my comments have been of value. Which is it?
Let me kill two birds with one stone. The issue of trips for trustees to sunny places is one thats been debated for years. The fact is trustees can't be paid( other than their union salary, or if they are hourly workers, reimbursed for lost time). The position of being a trustee is one that has been taken too litely for too long. Some of the abuses by trustees that you are seeing is a direct result of trustees who depended solely on professionals or were unwilling to confront those who were taking advantage of their positions. Under ERISA, there are obligations and responsibilities that they must live up to. The arguement is that by providing attractive destinations, trustees will attend those educational conferences. That's true, but the bigger issue is, what they learn when they get there.
I've had the good fortune of moderating the new trustees institutes the past two years. Thats about 1000 new trustees who we've taken a fairly hard line with on explaining their legal obligations. I also do a program with several others called situational ethics, where we use actual trust fund abuses as the backdrop for a learning tool. It's a great way for me to use my vacation.
Let me give you a couple of examples of what this education has done for me. In our 1998 negotiations, we added a defined contribution plan(401a and 401k) to go along with our defined benefit plan. In the past three years of its existence, grocery and meat members have saved 11 million dolllars. During that same time, we've doubled the pension benefit for full timers, because we negotiated monies that we could direct where it did the most good. In the 2002 negotiations, we added a retirees buy down on health insurance that will reduce monthly costs for those who qualify by $350.00. Finally, the multi-employer health care coalition we built is weeks away from rolling out the perscription drug program that will save millions of dollars to both the funds and our members.
My biggest concern over these programs is'nt where the education takes place, but whether they get something out of it besides a sun tan.In my opinion, these funds are one of the biggest differences in being Union or not. More importantly, they can and should be used to organize. It is essential for union leadership to take an active role in managing them and also improving them. Unfortunately, without the education, many trustees are'nt equiped to do that.
For those of you who voiced your support, thanks. I fight with people for a living, and truly i enjoy it. For example, on Good Friday, i was on the line with four attorneys from around the country. We were arguing over a health care facility that was in bankruptcy and whether the contract would be in force. It was ugly, and heated, but our members are still covered by the agreement. Guess i just got lucky,heh?
Siggy: You can give all the credit you want to Slek, but what set me off was About Unions praddle about walking in the shadows crap. Thats not the first time he's played that game. No, i did'nt call him out, because i'm trying to avoid that kind of penny ante bullshit. Follow the post immediately below sleks, nice happy face. If its just a good old rip roaring lets see who can insult the other guy better, thats not my thing. If thats how you define winners, then you win.
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but what set me off was About Unions praddle about walking in the shadows crap.
Then why would you attack the site and not the post?
"Fly's in the face of logic" does it not?
You've also made it abundantly clear that you're not above the "penny ante bullshit". So quit with the holier than thou tripe. No one's buying it.
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posted by slek:
Then why would you attack the site and not the post?
Okay, we all have out days and none of us are perfect (ahem, some days I'm damned close though). sleK has some points, siggy has some points and Bill P. has some points. Freedom of discourse is what makes unions strong.
The site is nothing more than magnetic images. Don't attack magnetism. The thoughts behind the images are always open to discussion.
Bill is not a troll, so let's not treat him like a troll. And Bill, we ain't no trolls neither. Grumpy? Sometimes, yes.
I would like to know what a "nebraka" like boy could possibly have said that would cause a President of a 5000 member large UFCW local to act like he was snake bitten by a texan rattler? Lets mediate electronically, despite the fact I believe that mediation does not favor the little guy. So I will start a thread in another forum. Stay tuned.
ABOUT UNIONS
What we have here is a clash of cultures: mainstream and new era unionists. Notice how we press each other's buttons? I don't think we really mean to but we do. Why do you think this is?
Education is one matter that is quite different than an all-expenses paid vacation at a resort.
IFEB has courses offered at universities and colleges accross North America. Those courses require the particpants to demonstrate mastery of course content.
Trips to Hawaii are just that--trips. In some cases a newbie may pick up a tid-bit or two but after the first or second trip, there ain't much to learn that you can't get out of a $50 book or at a local educational institution for a couple of hundred bucks.
The Hawaii, Las Vegas, San Francisco and Bermuda junkets are holidays dressed up to look like educational offerings.
It's a fact that shouldn't be disputed.
What's scary though is that when you see sleazy deals going down, you see the corrupt cadre of benefit despots behind the sleaze. They be the ones who sit on the comittees and boards.
How to fleece the members' benefit and pension funds isn't the type of education that the members should be footing the bill for. I know that's not what the so-called courses are inteded to be about, but some of these characters seem to be getting their bad habits from hanging around with a bad crowd.
Perhaps someone could tell us what is offered at one of the exotic junkets that is completely and totally unavailable elsewhere for a fraction of the cost?
Aren't there any consultants ready to do the schtic for all your members and for pennies on the dollar?
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The arguement is that by providing attractive destinations, trustees will attend those educational conferences.
Gee wiz guys that took a long time to get an answer. Can you guys fight in another thread? [and people say I'm grumpy ] If your on this site on a daily basis and don't want to pop somebody in the beak from time to time than I'd question if you have a pulse. Even David and I had some very heated fights that ended with phones or doors slamming. Lets everyone just call a " mulligan" and head off to their respective corners ok?
...anyway...I take it people were playing hookie prior to the sunny days in Florida. I don't understand why. What do you learn at these things [brief as ya can] and with people on the hook legally I'd think people would want to know all they could.
Now I'll grant you this, there is a retreat an advertising employer sends their staff once a year to. They are bombarded with games and activities and sensory input. Then they brainstorm ideas for the following years advertising campaigns. With all this activity and excitement they actually generate more than 65% of the years ads in just a few action packed days.
So...if fun is needed to keep people awake long enough to learn something, as a person who studied to be a teacher I'm actually all for it. However, that said I'm not convinced union executives downgrading their first class tickets to take their wives on sight seeing trips are getting the job done. I do think a game of golf between class's [if I could call them that] is a good idea. Couping anyone up in a hotel all day isn't good for educating people.
But lets be clear that I draw the line between strategic fun times placed between sessions to stimulate the brain, and excuses to send my supporters off on posh trips as a way of saying thanks for keeping your mouth shut.
Very few companies send people away on fun trips just for the fun of it. I can't think of any. The practice is not as widespread as many believe and where it does happen, it's usually a reward for meeting certain sales or profit goals. Not everyone gets to go - just those who meet certain (often very high) targets. It really isn't applicable to unions. If you work for a union and need lavish trips to get you motivated to do your work, you're in the wrong job.
Apparently, this segment seems to have set Bill off.
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If it becomes a revolution, people who claim to a part of the change will be found out and treated no differently than the other unscrupulous union leaders. A revolution will have no mercy for fence sitters. If people do not trust who walks in the shadows of a new ideology, so too shall these shadow walkers be thrust back into darkness.
For me, anyone who dilebertely deceives another especially in a position of power is not one whom I will trust nor respect, nor do I want them walking in my shadow. To me they have are not committed to the R-evolution.
ABOUT UNIONS
This is not an argument but a discussion. With the mainstream way, it ends up being a "status quo" solution. The old way of the union power structure is to state how the result will be. We have a perpect sitution here to change that and show progress.
Although I would guess by Bill's picture on the front page of his web page that we are closer to the same age, we appear to be planets away from comprehending each other and I guess our positions. Shadow says it best.
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What we have here is a clash of cultures: mainstream and new era unionists....
by Shadow
I am not sure why my comments in particular are extra sensitive to Bill. In fact being a president of a larger local I would have expected a much harder shell than he exhibits. As we know being an executive member is not a self gratifying job and requires a tough outer skin.
Maybe Bill was upset at me suggesting that he put a petition letter on his web site to be sent to ufcw.org protesting the actions of his union against this very site. He has said that we should have a plan and Bill doing that for the cause would be a beginning. What better for the movement than a union leader who believes in the need for union change to take an active lead in the cause. If one were to check I am sure that you will find Bill on other forums and in the spotlight of a lot of militant web based sites. What is Bill doing in the spot light there? Is Bill really afraid that his union might censure him for his participation in a free speech site or is that they may file suit against him? Well who knows what he really thinks.Who knows what Bill was really thinking when he accused me of setting him off. Perhaps Bill is afraid of losing his huge union wage and status if he lets it all hang oout!!
One thing that I can say is that I have one hell of pile of respect for the men and women behind this web site in the face of the gargantuan attack from a bully union like UFCW International.
And if there is one thing I will not stand for is someone trying to prevent mine or others freedom of speech. For everyone who reads this I encourage you to speak your mind freely here. That is one of the purposes of this site, freedom of expression something not tolerated in mainstream unions. No one will call me out of order here and that is why I put the on in one of my posts that upset Bill. Why that upset Bill is beyond me.
I want you all to know that I too sat back and read only for a while, afraid to post but really wanting too. I did not want to make mistakes or look like I did not know what I was taking about.
Then I could not take it no longer. I had a chance to express myself freely without persecution and dam I was going to do it and I will continue to freely express my self. And any one of you who gets unfairly criticized will have someone come to your side just as brothers and sisters did for me.
I refuse to be pushed around and especially from another a union leader pregressive or not. I welcome Bill's viewpoints as much as I value my right to post freely. Some points made by Bill as other contributors I agree with and some I do not. This is a free change of ideas form for all of us to agree with, disagree with or to offer suggestions to positive change.
So whether it is Bill or anyone else who may disgaree with what I post, feel free to state why, ignore it but do not run away. If you want change and you want to feel more empowered in you union enviroonment SPEAK YOUR MIND FREELY.
I look foward to all your future posts including Bills'.
ABOUT UNION 
I love this new addition.
I agree with Shadow's assessment of the situation also. There are two different cultures meeting up on this site. One that is established and has developed its own norms of behaviour and one that is only just evolving and is, among other things, questioning all the established norms.
One thing that has always struck me is how little tolerance there is among the mainstreamers for criticism of mainstream labour beliefs and institutions. I guess some of it comes from the belief that if we criticize ourselves, this will make us look bad in the eyes of members and potential members. Some of it may also be the product of the intense criticism the labour movement has had to deal with from business, government and other sources. There is a natural tendency to go on the defensive. Whatever the source(s), however, in mainstream culture those who criticize the mainstream are labelled "bad" - whatever their intentions. Union reformers are labelled "bad" and lumped in with everybody else because they are critical of the mainstream. Just look back at some of the posts in the various threads in the forum over the past few months. You'll find loads of examples of reformers being trashed by well-meaning mainstreamers just because they're criticizing the mainstream. We're all working for Conrad Black, we're misguided, we're tearing the labour movement apart, the list goes on forever.
I think that Bill has gone much further than most mainstreamers in interacting with us and in keeping an open mind but I'm sure that there are things (maybe words, statements or expressions) that bring back a lot of old conditioning. I'm not sure what was offensive about your or anyone else's comments. It's worth thinking about, I suppose because if we want to open up a dialogue we need to understand how people react to what we say.
On the other hand though, the mainstreamers are going to have to get used to us and our new era culture. Being reformers it is in our nature to question, to criticize (hopefully constructively), to poke holes in conventional wisdom and that kind of thing. That's just how we are. We are also a crowd that doesn't hold a lot back. We debate - sometimes even argue - among ourselves. To the mainstream, it probably seems like disunity. To us, though, I think it's normal. That's how we get our heads around issues and come to common understandings about things.
I think also that for many mainstreamers, some of the subjects that get discussed on this site are hard to deal with. We talk about stuff that isn't supposed to go on. Stuff that a lot of people are told is either not true or that rarely ever happens. Coming to the realization that a lot of really questionable things are going on is not easy.
Hard to take though it may be, it's a discussion that needs to go on. People need to know what's happening and why. Otherwise, no matter what we do to reform our unions, we'll run the risk of recreating the status quo. People also need to talk about how they are experiencing these disturbing things. What is it like to be in a rigid bureaucratic union where you're made to feel like a bug? By talking about how we experience things, we realize that we are not bugs and that there are a lot of others out there who think and believe as we do. That's a source of empowerment.
So, in closing...I agree that we have two different cultures on the go within the community. From what I can see, we new era people are more than willing to dialogue with the mainstreamers. They're going to have to reciprocate though. We are evolving a free-wheeling, questioning, in-yer-face (well sometimes), pushing-out-the-edges culture and there's nothing wrong with that. That's just how we are and what we do.
I will give credit to Bill, he appears to give most equal title status. Every place appears to be given a title as high as possible in the present structure. Does everyone have the same voting power? Here is Bill's executive board.
President William Pearson UFCW 789
Secretary-Treasurer Don Seaquist UFCW 789
Recorder Caroline Larsen UFCW 789
1st Vice President Paul Finkenhoefer Rainbow
2nd Vice President Duane Geske Rainbow
3rd Vice President Marjorie Schwartz Rose of Sharon
4th Vice President Ruth Andre Snyders
5th Vice President Sue McKee Rainbow
6th Vice President Bernie Hesse Lunds
7th Vice President Mark Schneider Rainbow
8th Vice President Ruth Zeman Dayton's Bluff
9th Vice President Jeffery Swant Rainbow
10th Vice President Diane Winter Jerry's Cub
11th Vice President Robert Klingner Knowlan's
12th Vice President
13th Vice President Lee Wilner Westland's
14th Vice President Mike Dreyer Maplewood Manor
15th Vice President John Hagert,Jr. Rainbow
16th Vice President Bill Young Byerly's
Union Reps Caroline Larsen, Don Seaquist, Shirley Muelken, Jeanine Owusu, Rafeal Espinosa, Howard Kern, Jennifer Swanson, Tom Oswald, and Bernie Hesse
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Corruption roosts on top
"31- FRATERNAL TIES
WHEREAS: The eyes of the trade unionists interested in preserving internal democracy are upon the Carpenters of BC; and
WHEREAS: Outspoken members of the United Brotherhood of Carpenters and Joiners of America in the United States have been disciplined and/or had their memberships terminated; and
WHEREAS: General President McCarron continues to use his dictatorial power to squash any dissent or criticism of him and his regime; and"
This is recent stuff
Carpenters Union BC fight back
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