Why workers run the other way.
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most of that's way over my head,but the folks i've got working with me will understand. You tech guys always make me nervous, you're way too smart.
IMHO, this needed to be pointed at. That's exactly how many workers view the union. Add to that the negative stuff workers hear and you got yourself a real good reason why workers don't get involved.
BP will you take the time to learn computer talk or like most members, will you leave that part to the pros?
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BP will you take the time to learn computer talk or like most members, will you leave that part to the pros?
YES! How's that for a smart a$$ answer.
" Let me be perfectly clear" in the immortal words of RMN. I view myself as an average working guy. I am intimidated by stuff i don't understand. Consequently, i would not take the time to learn code or whatever it is called. However, i want to know how to turn the computer on. I don't need to go into files, but i do want to send e-mail. I'm not going to spend hours with mavis bacon software, but i am okay with the hunt and peck.
The point is, i leave the tough stuff for the experts. I do want a basic knowledge so as to function at a level i am comfortable at. I think lots of members would look at union participation in the same light. I think they are more than happy to have me go wrestle with their employer, yet it doesn't hurt for them to know what their contract says. I don't think they want to go face to face with the attorneys, but they want to know what happens when i do.
The net of this is there is an absolute need to get members comfortable with the process and involved in the outcomes. They don't have to become experts, they do have to become activists.
It took biz-unions many moons to create the master_piece. Any machine would be amiss to build it and expect that they will come now.
Turning this around will take some serious leg work. The information will have to be hand delivered, spoon-fed, mixed in with the orange juice.
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It took biz-unions many moons to create the master_piece. Any machine would be amiss to build it and expect that they will come now.
Turning this around will take some serious leg work. The information will have to be hand delivered, spoon-fed, mixed in with the orange juice.
Sorry Siggy, i've never been willing to concede defeat. I've always believed we would overcome. There are far too may people in this business who simply do it cause it's a job. It's so much more. You almost have to become a zealot, fixated on winning. The minute you stop believing in yourself and the union, you are one step closer to being gone. If i were to be honest, my greatest regret is that i didn't do a better job of inspiring workers to be more involved.
If you look at what the labor movement could or should be, it's easy to stay focused and committed.
I never expected it to be easy, i just always thought it was the right thing to do, and the right place to be.
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i've never been willing to concede defeat. I've always believed we would overcome.
I wasn't suggesting giving up, I was suggesting working harder. 
ed=clarity: everyone working harder
Thanks for clarifying, you never struck me as a quiter. Hell, lets just go kick some serious ass, kinda like local 1500 did 
Oops, that's a different thread.
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If you look at what the labor movement could or should be, it's easy to stay focused and committed. I never expected it to be easy, i just always thought it was the right thing to do, and the right place to be.
I think this is the answer to the question of how to rebuild the labour movement. We have to ask working people how should it be? If there are not enough of them responding yet, we should develop our own vision of how it should be and put it out there.
One thing that I am certain of is that - whatever the current level of disinterest - if the vision is right, people will connect with it and with each other. That will be the point where we reach the critical mass that will get the rebuilding process started.
It won't be a long slow process either. It will be more like the "big bang" theory (the one about the creation of the universe for those whose minds just went into the gutter. See, on Fridays even RV has a sense of humour 
).
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It won't be a long slow process either. It will be more like the "big bang" theory.
RV, i think this an absolute truth. The trick is twofold, and i think they will happen simultaneous.
More importantly, they will happen in a large part because of the internet. Our infamous MN. governor uses a term that best describes what has been the biggest problem. Plausable denial. After all these years of attending union functions, no-one has wanted to even acknowledge the problems, let alone accept the blame. Hell, we can't even have an honest discussion as to why its happening.
The second event will, in my opinion, inspire those in power to face reality. As the internet becomes the tool (weapon) of choice, we will find leaders who have merrily pretended everything is okay, to suddenly find themselves having to answer some very tough questions. Recognizing they can no longer bullshit the masses , they will be swept up in a massive act of contrition. Their sudden burst of honesty will inspire workers to see the labor movement for what it could and should be. Of course, the only way they will survive is to make the necssary adjustments in wage and benefit packages for themselves........ and i ain't talking about upwards. The ones that are just in it for the money will be swept away (one of my favorite movies, anyone seen it?), and only those who truly want to be part of this rebirth will be left.
I know it's dreaming, but we aren't that far removed from it actually happening. The real measure will be how much mainstream labor fights the open source unionism efforts. If they embrace it, it will happen that much sooner than if they actively try and destroy it. I believe even the biggest fool can see the handwriting on the wall if we don't change the way we think and act.
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The real measure will be how much mainstream labor fights the open source unionism efforts.
With the work your local has already done in osu, there must have been some feedback or clues as to how receptive mainstream might be. ?????
Curious is perhaps the best descriptor i could come up with. Everyone at the local levels are hungry for solutions, yet hesitant to get too far out there. I found it interesting , the labor speakers club is a group of "misfits" who get very little attention. Monday evening, we are doing a program on OSU and both central bodies(St, Paul and Mpls.) ran blurbs on the presentation. What's even more interesting is, i had several e-mails from trade unionists who wanted Joels article.
What's especially cool is we met on Friday and layed out an aggressive schedule to premier this at a number of union functions. We are looking at some wireless options that would allow us do stuff we couldn't do otherwise.The two events of the most note would be the Mn. afl-cio convention where we will have access to well over a thousand trade unionists, most of them members of unions.
Of bigger note is the labor pavillion at the mn. state fair. We are talking about running a wireless laptop and projector at our booth. We have offered to have the labor education department at the u of m join us. We are talking potential exposure to 10's of thosands of workers. Actually, once we get brainstorming over this stuff the posibilities become almost endless.
You're too shy Bill 
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Here's what the Minnesota Speakers Club had to say.
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The second event will, in my opinion, inspire those in power to face reality. As the internet becomes the tool (weapon) of choice, we will find leaders who have merrily pretended everything is okay, to suddenly find themselves having to answer some very tough questions. Recognizing they can no longer bullshit the masses , they will be swept up in a massive act of contrition. Their sudden burst of honesty will inspire workers to see the labor movement for what it could and should be. Of course, the only way they will survive is to make the necssary adjustments in wage and benefit packages for themselves........ and i ain't talking about upwards. The ones that are just in it for the money will be swept away (one of my favorite movies, anyone seen it?), and only those who truly want to be part of this rebirth will be left.
I know it's dreaming, but we aren't that far removed from it actually happening.
I think that you're right on this and that we are beginning to see it happening. If you look at the Lomans warehouse situation, I think you see a good example. We will see more of these from now on and I think the whole evolutionary process will be accelerated if we support workers who ask these questions and help them to understand what's really going on.
My sense is that web site like this one could serve a very useful purpose by giving workers like those at Lomans a place to turn for information and insight so that they can make sense of what's going on around them.
I think that the Internet could also serve as a meeting place for workers who are not that familiar with unions. What kind of information or online services do you think would attract workers in this group (siggy, Bill and all others)? What kind of stuff are you thinking of putting into your wireless presentation (Bill)?
While I was reading at www.workdayminnesota.org (about osu) a couple things caught my eye.
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Stagehands settle strike at Ordway Theater
ST. PAUL - Stagehands have settled their strike against the Ordway Theater in downtown St. Paul, after six days of picketing during the performance of 'Anything Goes.'
Matt Rice, business agent for Local 13 of the International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees, called the settlement a 'win-win.' A majority of the 60 Local 13 members who voted on the pact approved it, he said.
A key issue in the strike was achieving parity between female wardrobe workers and the mostly male stagehand staff. Rice said parity was not reached in the new three-year contract, but the Ordway has agreed to achieve it after the contract ends.
Stagehands went on strike against the Ordway on June 13, but the theater opened the Broadway play 'Anything Goes' without the union workers and has continued running the production. Rice said the theater was replacing stage workers with other Ordway employees and with out-of-town scabs. 'Anything Goes,' which runs through June 30, employed 25 Stagehands, 8 of whom are on staff at the Ordway. In the last year, more than 160 Stagehands have worked at the theater, Rice said.
The Stagehands are responsible for lighting, sound, scenery and costumes in the production.
Can someone explain how the company will achieve pay equity after the contract ends?
And more interesting is this story:
"Retired union members mobilize for 2002 elections"
Seniors, retirees, what a great resource. It never occurred to me before, but the wealth of information and just plain value is in those that came before us.
It could be a great give and take relationship. I'm guessing that the majority of retirees/seniors aren't all that savy with computers (I could be wrong). Many might be willing (honored) to exchange their experience/wisdom for our internet savy. It would be a win-win. No?
I wondered if anyone has already entertained the idea of involving this group with osu?
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I think that the Internet could also serve as a meeting place for workers who are not that familiar with unions. What kind of information or online services do you think would attract workers in this group ( siggy,bill and others)?
I think there are varying options rv. First, if you follow some of the worker sites, there appears to be a fair amount of discontent. I expect an opportunity to vent is an easy sell. When we held our first open source session, one of the participants suggested we conduct starting wage and benefit surveys and post it on the site. That would give workers a chance to compare differing jobs. I thought it would be pretty cool to post a big box store and show how wages differed around the various depts. It mighty be interesting to see if areas of the store had higher populations of females with corresponding lower wages. Can anyone spell discrimination suit? Obviously, we want to provide phone numbers and links to web sites of federal agencies. Also, an ask the rep. section. There are also a good number of connections we have with food shelves and the like, where we could direct workers who were struggling to get by. One of the favorite tricks for big boxers to cut costs is to send workers home early. Maybe we could build a running data base with a perpetual counter of hours lost/stolen from workers. We have a number of experts(insurance, investments, lawyers) we do business with who would be willing to either answer questions or post information. I think if you top off the site with some basics about unionism, terms, rights,etc. you have a pretty good draw to get them to start coming. Once they get there, then you need to increase the stakes and give them value, as they "join,"
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What kind of stuff are you thinking of putting into your wireless presentation (Bill)?
Don't know for sure, other than we want people present to be able to do some hands on stuff. Getting them signed on and posting to the message board would be pretty cool. I've found over the years, having people actually do something rather than just showing them is, infinately more powerful.I also think an interaction with the u of m, LES would be awesome. maybe a simple little test of your union knowledge. I think one of the best uses in the out of house promotion will be to show people how to download flyers to give to friends and relatives. There's nothing wrong with shameless self promotion, as long as its for the right reasons.
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Can someone explain how the company will achieve pay equity after the contract ends?
My guess would be they have sunsetted the increases to be effective at the expiration date of this new agreement. I'll ask around and see if anyone knows for sure.
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I wondered if anyone has already entertained the idea of involving this group with osu?
No, only because i'm not sure how they would fit in. Our retirees club does a nice job, but they are pretty set in their ways as what they like to do. I'll have to give this more thought, cause right now i don't see how they would work into this project, short of being really good "shoppers" in non-union stores.
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short of being really good "shoppers" in non-union stores
BP, have you had some bad experiences with retirees before? I know they can be set in their ways, but they also are, for the most part, an untapped knowledge pool. We have been trying to discussing how to incorporate the retirees' knowledge into our training and organizing programs. Once our retirees step out of the workplace, they are mainly considered "Out of the Loop". They are still dues paying and voting members but are treated almost as if they never existed, except when they hand out the thirty, forty, or fifty year pins at the meetings. In the next five years, our trade will have a record number of retirees, and it seems it could be beneficial to utilize their talents and or knowledge and help keep them active within the organization. As our constitution and by-laws stand right now, the retirees cannot take any official role within the union or the industry without forfeiting their retirement. This forces them into inactivity short of volunteer work, and volunteerism itself isn't promoted. I know many will want nothing more than to enjoy their time and do what they want to do for a change instead of what they have to do, but there are many who wish, and perhaps need, to stay active within the organization they devoted basically their entire life to. We need to find a place for them and we don't need to threaten our retirees with a loss of retirement, but rather we should be awarding them for their willingness to stay active and their desire to remain involved with our future.
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What's even more interesting is, i had several e-mails from trade unionists who wanted Joels article.
BP, looks like there might be a glimmer of hope for the elite groups of self-centered, un-enlightened, trade unionists afterall!
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cause right now i don't see how they would work into this project, short of being really good "shoppers" in non-union stores.
Well geez, give some material to drop off while they're shopping. Give them a mission.
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cause right now i don't see how they would work into this project, short of being really good "shoppers" in non-union stores.
Sorry for the misunderstanding, that's what i was refering to. I wasn't implying they shop non-union. We got an award for a program we implemented from the mn. afl-cio. We set it up so when anyone retires they are contacted by the club and invited to join. We've used our retirees as a resource for several stories that have been done about the various industries we represent.
Even with what we have done it is an untapped group. There are some locals that have done a much better job of keeping retired members involved. In recent pension changes, both of our retirement plans have softened or removed the prohibitive employment rules. In addition, our improvements at the bargaining table should increase retirements and have members feeling more closely tied to the union. I think we will see more opportunities to increase the numbers of active retirees.
White shirts would look pretty dumb escorting seniors out the doors for sharing ideas.
Younger workers would (hopefully) be a little more attentive if the information comes from a senior (there is that unspoken wisdom_ical edge that seniors would have).
osu needs the bodies.
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In recent pension changes, both of our retirement plans have softened or removed the prohibitive employment rules.
BP, what sort of language was written into the plans to soften them up? I know our retirees can work as project managers or superintendents for the signatory contractors, but they cannot hold any official union position.
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BP, what sort of language was written into the plans to soften them up?
In our national meat cutters plan, a person can retire, draw their pension at age 62 and go back to work full time. In our grocery plan, we allow members to retire (out three months) and come back to a union employer and work approx. 20 hrs per week. Pension contributions that are made on their behalf would be applied and pension values increased each year.
