Yes, UFCW leaders, come out, come out wherever you are and talk with us. With all your vast resources, your money, your communications experts, your brilliant leaders, come out and tell us what on this web site you disagree with.
No sense sitting in the bushes sniping at us. Two years of that has got you nothing but egg on your smug faces. Look at all the material that has been posted on this site about your pension plans, your voluntary rec agreements, your collective bargaining settlements. Look at all the articulate and insightful articles, letters and commentaries that have been written by your members and tell us what's not right.
Show us that the self-proclaimed leaders of service industry labour can do more than piss and moan about MFD (or "MDF" as we understand some of you mistakenly call this site), its relentless pursuit of truth and transparency and its steadfast commitment to freedom of expression.
We've invited you to join us in open debate many, many times in the past and we're asking you again. We're still waiting.
Don't be afraid. As weiser says, we won't sue you. We're not looking to silence anyone.
UFCW Canada Fear
UFCW Canada, with some participation of UFCW International, has been taking every chance to denigrate the MFD site. Their representatives lurk and read but rarely comment. When a troll tries to defend the Canadian UFCW's abominable track record, each troll simply rants and refuses to comment on the irrefutable truth backed up by documented facts.
The MFD site has allowed UFCW members to access the UFCW International Constitution. The UFCW Canada site has an instantly loading French Version, but an English version so large that no one with a modem has the time in a day to load it, and if they have high-speed, they still have to wait, and wait, and wait. Why can the MFD do it and UFCW Canada can't or won't?
Look at how the UFCW Canada and the UFCW Local 1518 sites have tried to imitate the MFD site. Why is that? MFD has just about always beaten Local 1518 to the punch in getting accurate news and comment on-line. Today, lame as some of it is, UFCW Local 1518 at least tries to keep current. Heck, they seem to have hired an extra staffer just to keep up. However, they still swear their members to secrecy on most stuff.
Erving Goffman said:
quote:
In some situations there are destructive facts which must be controlled or it might discredit the team. Dark secrets are past incidents which the team must keep a secret. Strategic secrets are plans which must be kept quiet right now, but will later likely be openly acted upon or explained. This contrasts with dark secrets because they are never intended to surface. The final type of secret is an inside secret. This type of secret is held by a team to promote solidarity. In contrast to the other two types of secrets the disclosure of this type of secret is not particularly harmful to the team, unless it is also a dark or strategic secret. Free secrets are secrets acquired that are not important to you, and if disclosed would not discredit you or harm your reputation.
And that's the rub. The MFD has kept very little about the UFCW or other business unions secret. If it's fact, MFD prints it. If something needs investigation, MFD prints it. If something needs debate, MFD prints it. The MFD site and its writers have printed news, views and full truths. We have let the world know that Loman workers are getting the shaft-BIG TIME! The MFD site has told the world that Retail Wholesale signed a piece of crap for a labour contract at EV Logistics. We've told the world that EV Logistics has used that piece of crap to undercut the Loman contract. What has the UFCW done? Brooke Sundin stood up and apologized to all at the last BC Fed Convention. He discounted the pain and suffering and the humiliation of 250 UFCW Local 1518 members, so that the RW machine heads wouldn't be embarrassed over their labour rag that they signed with EV.
Make no doubt about it, if the UFCW is its machine heads, then the MFD site is very dangerous to the UFCW. However, if the UFCW is really its members, then the MFD site is the best thing that's happened to the labour movement in many, many years.
The secrecy isn't about protecting the UFCW, it's about protecting the machine heads. The secrecy issue isn't about union strategy, it's always about keeping machine heads' activites and real words out of the reach of the membership at large. Heck, if they would say it to one member, why would it secret from another?
Here's an open invitation:
Brooke, Ivan, Mike Fraser - stop lurking and start talking. Let's debate. Hey, and don't fear, we won't sue you. We'll just back up our defence with documents and testimony.
The message here is that, like every situation, everything in moderation is the key.
Where many unions and the UFCW in particular have gone off the rails is they have too many "Dark Secrets that were never intended to surface" and the use of "inside secrets" to hold the cabal together.
It was also immensely helpful that they were able to keep disenchanted "insiders" inside and isolated from others who might share their views on the overall stinkiness of things. Even the odd few that might from time to time have been expelled from the fold would have a really hard time finding like-minded others. Where would you look? How would you communicate? Across vast distances, how could they keep a conversation going long enough to stake out the common ground and start putting the pieces together?
Damned Internet! 
quote:
cetcsrvms01.cliffordevans.com
Yeah! Eliminating Isolation through Communication!
quote:
Damned Internet!
It was a couple of years ago when I asked about MFD at my union office. What they told me was very negative. Radicals, bad work records, political agenda. I looked from time to time anyways because there is so few places that openly cover this stuff. What I saw didn't match the description I was given and so I looked more often. I realized that iwas getting better information and education from MFD. What's more I could get my two cents worth in.
At the same time I realized that the web site my dues were going to fund had a very high bull-shit factor. Nor did I learn much about our local affairs. They also seemed to leave out a great deal.
Now I suspect that UFCW 1518 actually uses this site to find out what is really going on as do many other labour groups. I guess that's is why they are slagging you. I guess they always felt that they were in charge of what we would know and how it was told. Or did I get that wrong?
Regardless of the LRB ruling, the Loman campaign has exposed once again what a sorry state this local and this union are in. Maybe all they have left is name calling. Or did I get that wrong?
The bonus side is it hasn't stopped the Loman members from carrying on with a damn good campaign despite being hung out to dry. Looks like the union doesn't like that either. Something about an election next year. Or did I get that wrong?
Come out, don't be shy, members want to know, they have a right to know.
Not that I am a member of UFCW, but I can clearly see the benefits having this website in operation is. It is a tool. A tool, everyone can learn from...
The reason why executives of unions do not step up to bat is truly because they do not know how to hold the bat and stand at the plate at the same time. At the plate, when the ball is thrown, there are far too many jingles that come from their pockets and the fans don't seem to understand where is that sound coming from? Ah, but then they all see where it is coming from...don't we.
To the UFCW members - eventually someone is going to knock off a 'home run'. Wonder, which side will win...hope it is the team without the jingles at the plate.
What do the Local 1518 machine heads say about MFD now Billy or anyone else who's heard anything? I guess that goes to show you how effective they are at getting their message out. I haven't heard a damned thing.
That's what these guys don't get: They can piss on us all they want. Their message reaches a few people over a long period of time. MFD reaches thousands of people every day. They come here and make up their own minds about it. They can even tell MFD what they think, instantly and for the whole world to read about.
The days when you could put people off of an idea or organization by whispering evil things in the hallway or in the lunchroom are pretty much over. In the bad old days, many would go along with you because they simply had no way of deciding for themselves. Now, you say something is evil and people will look it up on the Internet to decide for themselves. If you say some web site is evil, they will definitely check it out to see for themselves.
Thanks, Local 1518 leaders, for helping to introduce more and more working people to MFD!
One person told me that MFD still wants to get Scott McPherson elected. Another said MFD was partly responsible for spilling the beans about a secret that wasn't a secret. "MFD is hurting solidarity and that is bad for everyone." Some people think that there is gold in that thar web site and MFD'ers are riding the UFCW critique bandwagon to fame and fortune. After all, if there isn't money in it, why would anyone do anything?
Still wondering when someone from UFCW1518 is going to attack the information and not the site. I think this just gets more and more embarrassing for UFCW. What can you say about an organization that exists for it's members but refuses to respond to their concerns? What can you say about a union president that blatantly tells a group of members that his political concerns are more important than fighting for their jobs? This is the kind of arrogance that has this local in serious trouble. 
Well, that is uh, disappointing to say the least. Those criticisms are so lame, I can't even be bothered to respond.
It would be just like the biz unionists to think there's money to be made off of criticizing them. That's pretty funny.
It gets better. Apparently there was a meeting of the campaign coordinators last week and Tony Evangelista was disparaging MFD. Tony is the E- Board guy UFCW sent in to head up the campaign. Tony said that MFD should have the campaign leaflet running on the front page.
Some suggestions Tony: Pass that along to the folks in charge of the Local 1518 web site, you know, the one that is paid to represent these guys, remember? That web site is mandated to cover UFCW issues within the local and your idea is perfect for them. Why would they refuse?
MFD covers workers issues regardless of stripe or location and they do it all for free. Nevertheless, MFD has covered the Loman issues from the start in a far more professional and in-depth manner than the member-funded 1518.com. As an example, MFD was instrumental in pressuring the UFCW1518 to give the rank and file the leaflet they wanted by covering the issue in depth.
Looking forward to seeing if the Loman leaflet can find a space at 1518.com. If UFCW1518 refuses, you let MFD know and the rank and file can debate the issue openly. Or would that be bad for your career?
What the heck does Tony do for a livin' anyway.
Here's Tony on the front page and they say he's a "Cleaner."
quote:
Cover photo:
Cleaner Tony Evangelista, a member of UFCW 1518,
looks over MSDS for cleaning products at a local
meat-processing plant.
Here, UFCW boosts Tony to Meat Cutter-Sausage Maker.
Did Tony get a promotion, did Van City need a more appropriate title for their picture boy, or do we really want to know what goes in sausages? Hey Tony, cleaner goes on the floor, pork goes in the sausage.
quote:
legal disclaimer: before the UFCW calls the lawyers for Tony, the preceding was intended as a joke. I do not believe and neither should you that Tony wouldn't know that cleaner goes on the floor and pork goes in the sausage.
Seriously, it doesn't really matter what Tony does for a living, it's just that he remembers where he came from. As long as he doesn't start thinkin' he's an aspiring business man like so many machine heads.
There, now, Tony. You took unsubstantiated cheap shots at MFD, so I linked to your picture showing you in a hair net.
Tony, we know you visit, so how about a few words about what exactly you don't like about the MFD site and why. C'mon Tony, rather than sniping in back rooms, comment in public. Show us why you should be the next business agent.
That's a great idea weiser. It would be really great if we could dialogue with one of the newer UFCDubya reps. They have not been immersed in the biz union culture for a long time and might be able to shed some light on what the union is all about (from their perspective) and about their own personal vision for the Power Source.
Come on Tony, talk to us. You can even use an alias if you're not comfortable revealing your identity on line. Tell us what's in your head.
[QUOTE]posted by remote viewer:
[QB]Well, that is uh, disappointing to say the least. Those criticisms are so lame, I can't even be bothered to respond.
I stumbled across your site looking for the real UFCW site and just had to respond.
In reading through your site, I have a feeling that the "mainstream" labour feels the same about your criticisms. They likely lurk in order to find something worth responding to.
I will say I was highly amused by the "Come out come out where ever you are" line. Man, I haven't heard that line since I was about 7 years old playing kick the can. Do you honestly think you can bait people into debate with childish antics?
I would like to know if any of you actually work FOR the union. I am not just talking as a member, I am talking about being employed by UFCW, etc.
To wrap my post I want to say I am all for union democracy. I belileve unions should be democratic. I think you guys are really warping the issues with poorly researched articles and misinformed opinions. You have a vehicle in a union to deal with democracy issues. You don't have to set up some website (registering ufcw.net loses you 10 points in my credibility books) in order to slag leadership. If you think you can do better, give it a try. Run for leadership - it is an elected position after all. Make your union democratic rather than sitting here whining about how you wish it was.
Well actually JR what we are doing here on this web site is raising issues, providing resources for working people, giving them an opportunity to speak and to engage in discussion with others, presenting facts and calling on the mainstream to join us in debate about issues of union democracy (among other things). So far none have step up to accept our invitation (with one notable exception from the stateside UFCW).
Since you mentioned the subject of union elections:
quote:
If you think you can do better, give it a try. Run for leadership - it is an elected position after all. Make your union democratic rather than sitting here whining about how you wish it was.
Tell us this:
Let's assume that I'm a member of a large union local - one of those huge UFCW locals that has a province wide jurisdiction and thousands of members. For the sake of our example, let's say that I'm in a local with 20,000 members scattered across Ontario. I want to run for the position of President of my local.
I earn a modest wage, maybe $12.00 per hour and it's the most that I can do to make ends meet. I have no funds to invest in an election campaign and certainly can't travel around the province visiting members and getting my message out. The incumbent President has been in place for many years. He has access to a wide range of communications and publications vehicles. He can make himself known to the members simply by travelling around the province and visiting them where they work. He can do this as part of his role as President so the cost will be picked up by the local.
How can I campaign effectively for the presidency in these circumstances? What resources are available to me through the union (if you're with the UFCW, please tell us what resources the UFCW makes available to members who want to run for elected office) so that the election can be held on a level playing field? What advice do you have for me as a member who wants very much to campaign for this position?
Please give me some practical advice (no pie in the sky about trying hard and doing my best). I want to know what I can do to get my message and my platform out to the entire membership and to not be unduly disadvantaged by the fact that I have no money and no resources of my own with which to fund a campaign.
quote:
I think you guys are really warping the issues with poorly researched articles and misinformed opinions.
By "poorly researched" I assume you mean that information on the site is incorrect? If so, why don't you tell us where we went wrong? Please be as specific as possible.
quote:
You don't have to set up some website (registering ufcw.net loses you 10 points in my credibility books) in order to slag leadership.
The content deals with the ufcw. Therefore it's entirely appropriate to have ufcw in the domain.
edited to add: by your rationale, you'll have to strike 20 points from the UFCW;
http://www.walmartdayofaction.com/
http://www.walmartworkerslv.com/
They registered these domains to slag wal-mart. 
quote:
If you think you can do better, give it a try. Run for leadership - it is an elected position after all.
Some of these folks have "been there, done that". Maybe Scott will come in and tell you what happened with that. In the meantime why don't you ask Brooke Sundin where the ballots went. 
Jack Rabbit said:
quote:
I think you guys are really warping the issues with poorly researched articles and misinformed opinions.
Well, Mr. Wabbit, you may have some misinformed opinions yourself. Many of the articles are not only well researched, they have been lived by the individuals who wrote them.
Tell us what articles you are refering to. What misinformation is contained in them? Challeng the facts and other readers will repond. If there's information on this site that is not factual, let us know, so it can be corrected.
Yes darn it, Jack Rabbit, please tell us what is inaccurate and how we are misinformed. Hell, we've posted sworn affidavits, LRB decisions, collective agreement excerpts and quotes by UFCW officials in major media reports that are all quite ...troubling.
Please tell us what you think is inaccurate and why you think we are misinformed. And Jack, hold onto your tail, more is on its way!
Jack Rabbit, you say the issues are being warped. In your learned opinion, what are the issues?
BTW, we're glad you're for union democracy. If you spot it in BC let us know where, so we can see it too.
That's right Jack Rabbit. I lived it and sure didn't love it, dude. There's no better research than watching the great bubbas of labour sucking up to da man first hand. And warped? I'll tell you about warped: You've made me want to talk about it some more so I'll be burning the midnight oil working on another unpleasant piece. Check back soon.
That's pretty cute that Jack says he stumbled upon MFD while searching for the ufc-dubya site. Any dyed-in-the-wool mainstream acolyte would have had ufc-dubya.ca bookmarked, so you're not foolin' us guy. You'll get drummed out of the Fed if you keep making bloopers like that.
Speaking of the Fed, are they going to come out and support the guys from Lomans warehouse? You know, the ones that UFCW Local 1518 Pres Sundin told to hit the road a couple of weeks ago?
Hop, Hop, Hop ~ Rabbit named Jack.
I am not a member of UFCW, but I can clearly see you are a missing link in the chain.
This website gives you communication, it educates people. MFD is a 'net' - a network of people. Some people, like me; just truly enjoy to visit it.
I would love to know how the executives of unions, any union - can explain to the rank and file, where exactly their pension fund is?
Seems to me if you are any worker, your pension has been silenced, gone the way of the dodo bird.
Jack Rabbit, I think your pension is secure.
Any working people, take a look - make sure you know what the trustees of your pension plans are doing. And, take another look at what your union executives are getting and you aren't.
Okay, slow down freak cookies!
I didn't say I was a UFCW member. I am starting to wonder if you not only lack the ability to research but lack basic literary skills as well. Just so you are total clear - I am NOT a union member at all. I repeat - NOT A UNION MEMBER. Just someone who can read and write. Valueable skill set IMHO.
So...none of you work for the union directly. Glad we got that out of the way. So really, none of you making the $10-12/hr have bothered to apply for a position at a union office. Whose fault is that?
I am not going to sit here and pick through all your mistakes and inaccuracies. There are far too many. I would suggest reading through your own forum, articles and posts, and find them for yourself. Think of it as a proverbial "Where's Waldo".
Like I said early (seemingly it got missed) that no union person can likely find anything worth responding to. I am finding it difficult to reduce myself to the level of petty baiting and name calling.
Advice: Get a clue. Research an issue. Make a point. It's not that hard. Maybe even try listening to people that point out what retards you are - they're onto something. Oh, and next time when you decide to whine about a law suit, consider posting the actual suit rather than your statement of defense. Oh, and kudos on the attempt to bait legal counsel into your debate. That was good for a hearty laugh.
Anyway, I won't be back to post again. I have IQ requirements for debate and none of you are meeting them. 
quote:
val·u·a·ble
adj.
Having considerable monetary or material value for use or exchange: a valuable diamond.
Of great importance, use, or service: valuable information; valuable advice.
Having admirable or esteemed qualities or characteristics: a valuable friend.
n.
quote:
I am NOT a union member at all. I repeat - NOT A UNION MEMBER. Just someone who can read and write. Valueable skill set IMHO.
Me thinks not humble enough JA oops JR 
Where did anyione try bait "legal counsel" into a debate? Only ufc-dubya fellas speak with such reverence about legal counsel.
I love it when they show up spewing and snorting venom and refusing to answer questions and always saying they're going away and not ever posting again and then coming back and spewing some more and saying they're not coming back again ever.
If Jack is not a member, maybe he's one of those rent-a-communications-wizards they periodically send over to visit with us when we've succeeded in pissing them off royally.
Hey Jack dude, answer my question about running for election. It was a good intelligent question I thought and you sound like a guy who might know the answer.
Maybe you can ask legal counsel about this legal document. What do you think? Now here's a guy really getting involved in his union!
Jack Rabbit said:
quote:
I am not going to sit here and pick through all your mistakes and inaccuracies. There are far too many. I would suggest reading through your own forum, articles and posts, and find them for yourself. Think of it as a proverbial "Where's Waldo".
Nobody asked you to pick through all of them. You're the one who shot off his mouth. Tell us about the ones that are the basis for your accusations.
I think it's pretty clear that you know you'll get blown out of the water.
Jack Rabbit also said:
quote:
I will say I was highly amused by the "Come out come out where ever you are" line. Man, I haven't heard that line since I was about 7 years old playing kick the can. Do you honestly think you can bait people into debate with childish antics?
Hey it got you out of the weeds now didn't it you wascally wabbit!
Now put up or shut up!
quote:
I am not going to sit here and pick through all your mistakes and inaccuracies.
Naturally.
quote:
Maybe even try listening to people that point out what retards you are - they're onto something.
We do but, like yourself, no one has been able to dispute the information we provide. Instead, like yourself, they resort to petty namecalling.
quote:
Oh, and next time when you decide to whine about a law suit, consider posting the actual suit rather than your statement of defense.
Here's a clue for you smart guy.
quote:
Anyway, I won't be back to post again. I have IQ requirements for debate and none of you are meeting them.
Too bad, so sad.
From Rabbit Brain:
quote:
Anyway, I won't be back to post again. I have IQ requirements for debate and none of you are meeting them.
You're right, MfD is exceeding them!!
Spoken like a true UNION type that has to call names and not address the issues and facts head on..... seems like this reminds me of someone....
Could this be my old buddy who calls me names, impunes my character and then trys to deliver his propaganda so he can raise the membership dues to empower his members ....
NVA
quote:
Could this be my old buddy who calls me names, impunes my character and then trys to deliver his propaganda so he can raise the membership dues to empower his members
That was uncalled for.
**I love it when they show up spewing and snorting venom and refusing to answer questions and always saying they're going away and not ever posting again and then coming back and spewing some more and saying they're not coming back again ever.**
Once again, incapable of reading what is written. I said I WASN'T a UFCW member. How many times would you like me to repeat myself for your thick selves? (Okay, so I checked back - you guys are still lame.)
**If Jack is not a member, maybe he's one of those rent-a-communications-wizards they periodically send over to visit with us when we've succeeded in pissing them off royally.**
You haven't managed to piss me off. I think you are giving yourself WAY too much credit.
**Hey Jack dude, answer my question about running for election. It was a good intelligent question I thought and you sound like a guy who might know the answer.**
A good intelligent question? Okay, I'll check again because I just don't believe it. I don't know anything about union campaigning but really, how much could it cost for a few flyers and a couple pins?
Several valid points have been made in response to your posts.
Address them or go away.
everyone else; ignore him, he'll go away.
From sleK:
quote:
That was uncalled for.
Does this mean you want me to go away? I, like everyone else who posts here, wants to speak my mind, without being admonished. I stand my ground. But if you want me to go away, I will.
I will still think that MfD is one of the rare and most honest websites regarding unionism there is.
And I will speak my mind where ever I go, let those that cannot justify their extortion (be it membership dues or other nonsensical propaganda, etc) and lack of legal analysis and case interpretation, and member back up, justify their own existence.
Make them stand and deliver, not just those contributors who are deemed to be politically correct or "popular" with the rhetoric and propaganda. You post on sites that remove your message, why admonish mine? Let them answer.
NVA 
NVA, YGM (you've got mail)
quote:
posted by sleK:
Several valid points have been made in response to your posts.
Address them or go away.
everyone else; ignore him, he'll go away.
That's what you think
quote:
posted by remote viewer:
Well actually JR what we are doing here on this web site is raising issues, providing resources for working people, giving them an opportunity to speak and to engage in discussion with others, presenting facts and calling on the mainstream to join us in debate about issues of union democracy (among other things). So far none have step up to accept our invitation (with one notable exception from the stateside UFCW).
Since you mentioned the subject of union elections:Tell us this:quote:
If you think you can do better, give it a try. Run for leadership - it is an elected position after all. Make your union democratic rather than sitting here whining about how you wish it was.
How can I campaign effectively for the presidency in these circumstances? What resources are available to me through the union (if you're with the UFCW, please tell us what resources the UFCW makes available to members who want to run for elected office) so that the election can be held on a level playing field? What advice do you have for me as a member who wants very much to campaign for this position?
Please give me some practical advice (no pie in the sky about trying hard and doing my best). I want to know what I can do to get my message and my platform out to the entire membership and to not be unduly disadvantaged by the fact that I have no money and no resources of my own with which to fund a campaign.
So far, all I have seen has been a bunch of "bitchy" articles where you put something the labour movement does down. Tell me how a union can be effective with visual disention? "United we stand, divided we fall." Solidarity for never eh boys and girls.
I'll call a union and ask what it takes to campaign in other words, I'll do my homework.
My advice for a member who wishes to make changes in their union is to get a job WITH the union. You don't need much more than a resume for that. If a union office position isn't available, consider shop stewart or communication positions. Do any of you do that?
I want to know, once again, where you get all your information from. Consider siting your sources so the good people can differentiate between malformed opinion and fact.
Thank you.
Dear Jack Rabbit,
You have been asked a number of questions by other forum participants. My question had to do with any advice you may have for union members who want to run for office in their local but cannot possibly go head to head with incumbent officers. You let on in your earlier posts that you thought this would be an easy matter. You subsequently stated that you didn't know much about union elections. Please clarify for us whether you or not are knowledgable about internal union governance or not. If you are not, please explain what compels you to believe that it would be relatively easy for members to democratize their unions.
To your question about what could possibly be the cost of a few flyers and some buttons. Well, in a local of 20,000, mailing one flyer to each member (assuming the candidate has access to their addresses, which in most cases, they do not) would cost about $10,000.00 That's one measly flyer. Cost to a local Pres to visit each an every work site where members are employed, to get his mug and list of accomplishments in the union's internal publications, on it's web site and in the International's publications: $0.00
My questions to you: Is this a level playing field? Do members who earn barely enough to make ends meet undertake an election campaign under these circumstances?
BTW, please do not use the term "retards" when referring to others in this forum. This is an offensive term used to denigrate persons with disabilities. If you are sympathetic to the objectives of organized labour (whether in the mainstream or emergent wave which is where most of us are) you should know better. You are disparaging many thousands of people. Using this term in the context of your earlier post is quite shameful and inappropriate.
quote:
Maybe even try listening to people that point out what retards you are
You remind me of a certain union representative who visited us a while ago and made sexually oriented comments about the "membersheep". Not cool.
quote:
posted by Troll:
Jack Rabbit said:Nobody asked you to pick through all of them. You're the one who shot off his mouth. Tell us about the ones that are the basis for your accusations.quote:
I am not going to sit here and pick through all your mistakes and inaccuracies. There are far too many. I would suggest reading through your own forum, articles and posts, and find them for yourself. Think of it as a proverbial "Where's Waldo".
I think it's pretty clear that you know you'll get blown out of the water.
Jack Rabbit also said:Hey it got you out of the weeds now didn't it you wascally wabbit!quote:
I will say I was highly amused by the "Come out come out where ever you are" line. Man, I haven't heard that line since I was about 7 years old playing kick the can. Do you honestly think you can bait people into debate with childish antics?
Now put up or shut up!
Ya, you are right. No one asked me to shoot off my mouth. I don't run around waiting for invitations to express myself. Do you?
You see, I am walking through a mine field. As soon as I point out mistakes, I'll be acused of being someone or something. I also don't want to cause anyone anymore MFD headlining grief so I'll pass. I think the lack of disenting response speaks loudy to my point.
What's happening here is you guys are prodding UFCW with a bunch of bullshit waiting for then to come and correct you so you can get down to the real issues. I think this is a HUGE reason why you guys can't get the responses you are looking for. You don't bother doing the homework and can be easily shrugged off. I don't think I have ever spoken to a union person who wasn't all for union democracy. I know I am. I'm just not for your tactics. I think you catch way more flies with honey.
Answer my questions Jack. Here's another one: Why are you so angry? You sound like a really angry guy.
quote:
posted by remote viewer:
Dear Jack Rabbit,
You have been asked a number of questions by other forum participants. My question had to do with any advice you may have for union members who want to run for office in their local but cannot possibly go head to head with incumbent officers. You let on in your earlier posts that you thought this would be an easy matter. You subsequently stated that you didn't know much about union elections. Please clarify for us whether you or not are knowledgable about internal union governance or not. If you are not, please explain what compels you to believe that it would be relatively easy for members to democratize their unions.
See post above.
quote:
To your question about what could possibly be the cost of a few flyers and some buttons. Well, in a local of 20,000, mailing one flyer to each member would cost about $10,000.00 That's one measly flyer. Cost to a local Pres to visit each an every work site where members are employed, to get his mug and list of accomplishments in the union's internal publications, on it's web site and in the International's publications: $0.00
Okay, so you have every excuse in the world as to why you can't. I get it. So tell me, how do people like, say, "Bro_Ken" go from a pipefitter to CLC president?
quote:
My questions to you: Is this a level playing field? Do members who earn barely enough to make ends meet undertake an election campaign under these circumstances?
Well, my understanding of campaigning is that a big part of it is fund raising. Is your playing field such that you can't even raise money? You have your support vehicle right here. Start asking MFD members to put some a couple bucks for your flyers and buttons. Hell, I would put some money for ya because I would be really interested in seeing how far you could actually go on your platform. Oh, but I am sure I am going to get "that's not how it works in the real world". Yeah, it is how it works. You just have to put in a whole lot of time and effort. You willing to do that for your cause? I mean hell, why should we support your crusade if you aren't even willing to go the distance for it?
quote:
BTW, please do not use the term "retards" when referring to others in this forum. This is an offensive term used to denigrate persons with disabilities. If you are sympathetic to the objectives of organized labour (whether in the mainstream or emergent wave which is where most of us are) you should know better. Using this term in the context of your earlier post is quite shameful and inappropriate.
So what? In an open forum you are going to tell me what words I can and cannot use? What happened to my freedom of speech. That's damn hypocritical of you.
Sorry, I don't think of "denigrate persons with disabilities" (this the PC term these days ) as retards. I think of people with normal mental capacity that choose not to use it as being retarded. And I will continue to use this word as I see fit thank you very much. You have a problem with that denizens for democracy?
quote:
Maybe even try listening to people that point out what retards you are
You remind me of a certain union representative who visited us a while ago and made sexually oriented comments about the "membersheep". Not cool.[/QUOTE]
Membersheep? How in the hell is that sexually oriented? This is the internet, not PC land. To boot, I don't really care who visited you and what they said. I doubt the poster was even a union rep given your ability to get the whole "who's who" thing right. (Want proof of that, see my posts above where I stated 3 times I wasn't a UFCW member but still got accused of being one.)
**Please forgive my typos - bad eyesight and I can't preview my posts**
quote:
posted by remote viewer:
Answer my questions Jack. Here's another one: Why are you so angry? You sound like a really angry guy.
I am not angry at all. But I will say ignorance does get me excited.
quote:
posted by NewViewerActivist:
From Rabbit Brain:You're right, MfD is exceeding them!!quote:
Anyway, I won't be back to post again. I have IQ requirements for debate and none of you are meeting them.
LOL Yeah, that must be it!
Spoken like a true UNION type that has to call names and not address the issues and facts head on..... seems like this reminds me of someone....
Your mother? Great Aunt Mary? Who? Tell me!
I'm not a union type. If I was, does that discredit me from having an opinion. I sure hope not. I am addressing issues, it just takes me a bit of time to get around to em. I have to cut through all the crap to find the issues first. It's hard you know. There is just SO much crap.
Could this be my old buddy who calls me names, impunes my character and then trys to deliver his propaganda so he can raise the membership dues to empower his members ....
hahaha If you want to send me money, feel free! I won't say no. You are welcome to empower me if you like but I am pretty good at doing that myself.
NVA
One doesn't have to a genius to see the difference between this site and 1518.com. This site is about interaction with the rank and file on the issues of the day. 1518.com is more like marketing or image "branding".
This site has been refreshing for the simple reason that it gives the viewer a much clearer sense of what the truth might be and people are starting to realize that very powerful fact. Many minds, many sources, great debate, great documentation; the site is much more than it's makers. Having suffered no censorship or spin doctoring it is at times raw and anonymity has certain drawbacks. Collectively, it still leaves the reader much closer to the truth. That pretty much sells itself. At the very least, one will get some very interesting documents.
And it is free in every sense of the word that's important.
JR: you still have not chosen to point out anything specific that you disagree with. Your sweeping generalities are unconvincing and you have yet to score one point on my credibilty scale. You did take the heat off Tony.
Still waiting to see if 1518.com can fit our leaflet into their front page - great idea Tony!
[QUOTE]posted by remote viewer:
[QB]Where did anyione try bait "legal counsel" into a debate? Only ufc-dubya fellas speak with such reverence about legal counsel.
I like law, what can I say? Took a lot of law classes in college. You still haven't posted the actual complaint that has been filed against you. Why is that?
JR said:
quote:
You see, I am walking through a mine field. As soon as I point out mistakes, I'll be acused of being someone or something. I also don't want to cause anyone anymore MFD headlining grief so I'll pass. I think the lack of disenting response speaks loudy to my point.
Not so, Mr. Rabbit. If you'll take the time to read the entire site, you'll see some very good dissenting opinions. Heck, even the regulars don't always agree. However, we always are willing to back up our positions with evidence, critical argument or logic.
Hey, I thought you were not going to visit anymore.
Anyway, you tell us what you think is inaccurate, and people will respond with evidence to back up their claims.
And, JR, if you don't want to be flamed, don't flame.
I know you're frustrated that you've been caught in the same trap as your other troll pals. You make a vague statement or allusion and then you dodge and flame when you are put on the spot to substantiate what you are talking about. You said the site is loaded with warped issues and inaccuracies. You must have read one or two things that promted you to spew such a hyperbolical assertion.
Give us one example, or keep your promise to bugger off, or at least get back to lurking quietly.
Oh, and BTW, if you actually took the time to read the posts in this thread, you'd see that sleK This Fine Document for Jack Rabbit to Read.
**I would love to know how the executives of unions, any union - can explain to the rank and file, where exactly their pension fund is?**
Your/Their pension fund is in the pockets of Nortel, Enron, etc Executives. Go ask for it back.
**Seems to me if you are any worker, your pension has been silenced, gone the way of the dodo bird.
Jack Rabbit, I think your pension is secure.**
I don't have a pension, but if I did, in todays market, I doubt it is secure. Thanks to companies like Nortel and Enron, the market has gone to shit. Know why? Because these corporations aren't held accountable for their actions. The current law doesn't force independent auditing and disclosure. I hope that will change in the near future so people like yourself can stop getting bilked of pension money in the corporate creation of an unstable market. But don't think for one second that Union Executive's pension money is any safer than yours.
For further details, contact your pension trustee/administrator.
**Any working people, take a look - make sure you know what the trustees of your pension plans are doing. And, take another look at what your union executives are getting and you aren't.**
Exactly, go look. Do the leg work. Don't sit here and wonder about it when you have access to the answers.
quote:
posted by weiser:
JR said:Not so, Mr. Rabbit. If you'll take the time to read the entire site, you'll see some very good dissenting opinions. Heck, even the regulars don't always agree. However, we always are willing to back up our positions with evidence, critical argument or logic.quote:
You see, I am walking through a mine field. As soon as I point out mistakes, I'll be acused of being someone or something. I also don't want to cause anyone anymore MFD headlining grief so I'll pass. I think the lack of disenting response speaks loudy to my point.
Hey, I thought you were not going to visit anymore.
Anyway, you tell us what you think is inaccurate, and people will respond with evidence to back up their claims.
And, JR, if you don't want to be flamed, don't flame.
I know you're frustrated that you've been caught in the same trap as your other troll pals. You make a vague statement or allusion and then you dodge and flame when you are put on the spot to substantiate what you are talking about. You said the site is loaded with warped issues and inaccuracies. You must have read one or two things that promted you to spew such a hyperbolical assertion.
Give us one example, or keep your promise to bugger off, or at least get back to lurking quietly.
Naw, this is much more fun.
I think this weeks review proves my point just fine. I mean, you made some lame point about some girl or something and then posted her saying she wasn't what you claimed she was (I'm going on memory here). So really, how do you correct your BS? By stating it over and over again? Bravo.
I think there is a serious discrepency in what you believe to be true and what is actually true. Just because you think it is, doesn't mean it is.
See, it's next to impossible to have intellectual conversations with people who will never get it. It's like mud wrestling with a pig, I get dirty and the pig likes the shit he's rolling around in.
So tell me something, what steps have you taken to address union democracy with your union? Have you met with the presidents, etc? Or did you just jump right into the whole website thing?
Oh, and BTW, if you actually took the time to read the posts in this thread, you'd see that sleK [URL=http://www.ufcw.net/files/mfd_writ_of_summons.txt]This Fine Document for Jack Rabbit to Read.
Yeah, I missed that. I'll read now - thank you.
Oh we have:
Go Here
And when you're finished:
Go Here.
And what did we find?
Go Here
And when you're finished that thread:
Visit Here.
Hey, and we've only just begun.
In answer to JR's question:
quote:
So tell me something, what steps have you taken to address union democracy with your union? Have you met with the presidents, etc? Or did you just jump right into the whole website thing?
I went all the way to the top before I found this site. I was totally ignored by the union and it's officials in Canada and the US.
haha this is great! (the lawsuit that is)
So when are you going to get slapped with the decision?
quote:
posted by weiser:
Oh we have:
Go Here
And when you're finished:
Go Here.
And what did we find?
Go Here
And when you're finished that thread:
Visit Here.
Hey, and we've only just begun.
In answer to JR's question:I went all the way to the top before I found this site. I was totally ignored by the union and it's officials in Canada and the US.quote:
So tell me something, what steps have you taken to address union democracy with your union? Have you met with the presidents, etc? Or did you just jump right into the whole website thing?
Okay, so you invited them onto your forum? Is that what you call going to the top? Let me rephrase my questions, which you are free to answer without positing .pdfs and links to your forum:
Have you actually had a face to face meeting with UFCW union heads? If so, who.
Yes face-to-face, and by several letters. At International level by letters only.
If you visit files and documents, you will see all sorts of correspondence from all sorts of people.
Jack Rabbit = Red Herring and "switch and bait"
Good bye JR. I have Christmas shopping to do-- a miserable chore, but much better than dancing with you.
quote:
posted by weiser:
Yes face-to-face, and by several letters. At International level by letters only.
If you visit files and documents, you will see all sorts of correspondence from all sorts of people.
Jack Rabbit = Red Herring and "switch and bait"
Good bye JR. I have Christmas shopping to do-- a miserable chore, but much better than dancing with you.
Awe! Avoiding my questions getting to be too much for you. So sad. Happy shopping!
If you explore this site in greater depth, you will find the answers to your question. The original group that started this site, tried very hard to raise their issues in-house with their union's leaders. They were ignored. They even ran a slate of candidates in a local election in 1999. As I understand it, their union took the ballot box away and the results of that election have never been announced. When all else failed, they filed a lawsuit to have the ballot box opened and the results made known. They ran out of money and withdrew the suit many months later unable to go any further.
This web site is an evolution of the one they started to raise awareness of their cause.
quote:
posted by remote viewer:
If you explore this site in greater depth, you will find the answers to your question. The original group that started this site, tried very hard to raise their issues in-house with their union's leaders. They were ignored. They even ran a slate of candidates in a local election in 1999. As I understand it, their union took the ballot box away and the results of that election have never been announced. When all else failed, they filed a lawsuit to have the ballot box opened and the results made known. They ran out of money and withdrew the suit many months later unable to go any further.
This web site is an evolution of the one they started to raise awareness of their cause.
I don't want to explore this site in much greater depth. I'm already knee deep in crap as is and I've only scratched the surface. You haven't made me want to read more. Moreso, you don't have my vote or my symapthy. I know how much easier it is to surround yourself with "yes" men than face the truth.
It's a shame things have gone from a decent idea to defamation.
So why do you keep coming back? It's hard to stay away isn't it? What is defamatory and how do you know that it is? What kind of crap are you knee deep in?
LIke I said people, ignore him and he'll go away.
JackRabbit, if your only purpose here is to stir up shit with unsubstantiated allegations and name calling, be advised that it will be a short stay.
Aw slek, he's funny. I've enjoyed our interaction. We haven't had a good forum troll visit with us in a long time.
Oh well, administer the rules as you think best.
yawn
Jackrabbit
Anything you've read here about that fat prick Sundin is abso-fucking-loutly 100% true.
Take it from someone who has experienced his arrogance.
Obviously you havent.
quote:
Anything you've read here about that fat prick Sundin is abso-fucking-loutly 100% true.
Have a few issues, do we?
Yes, you've all been trolled, but Jack Rabbit brings up many interesting points. (Of which I had repeated MANY times before)
For a supposedly 'pro-active' group, a lot seems to be said, and not a lot done. Of course, I assume that's the 'power' of the Internet, the ability to get your voice heard, or at least assume your voice is heard by people that you think care about your opinion. Instead of sitting back and attacking people behind a veil of Internet anonymity, why don't the loudest of you complainers go out and actually do something? And no, posting to a website doesn't work.
under normal circumstances, personal outbursts are edited. However, the rage, the hurt and the humiliation of Loman workers should be heard within broader limits.
As one door closes, another opens, but it's lonely as hell standing in the hall waiting for the new door to open.
My heart goes out to all the Loman guys. It's time for a moment of silence, to regroup and think of what to do next.
Mr Fire/Jack Rabbit you are boring me now. Answer the questions we've asked you or get back under your bridge. You are contributing nothing to the discussion.
I've had enough.
JackRabbit/MrFire: you're outta here. Send me an email when you grow up or get a clue - which ever comes first, though I doubt either will happen.
See ya!
weiser, as disappointing as the LRB decision on Local 1518's common employer application is, I think it's entirely predictable.
Making this kind of application, 10 years after the business changed hands, what did Local 1518's leaders think was going to happen? They dealt with Loman's for a decade without raising a peep to the effect that OFG was the real employer or a related employer. Knowing the LRB's great love for keeping the status quo and it's discomfort with creative arguments (especially ones that favour workers), where did they ever get it into their heads that they had a winnable case?
IMO, the Local's leaders used this application as a tool to dampen the Lomans workers' enthusiasm for direct action, to deflect their pleas for support of their leafleting campaign and to keep them divided. Some would always lean towards waiting for the LRB to deliver justice, little knowing that the LRB isn't in about justice at all.
Now that the predictable has happened, I wonder what Local 1518's leaders will do with the Lomans workers? Will they dump them? I think that's what they'd like to do and that rather than the LRB decision is what's truly sad.
Having said that, however, there are many things that can be done to encourage the local to do the right thing for these members. Let's make a list.
buh-bye
quote:
Mr Fire/Jack Rabbit you are boring me now. Answer the questions we've asked you or get back under your bridge. You are contributing nothing to the discussion.
I would but I was banned apparently. Of course, you actually haven't asked me any questions yet, but that's a different set of problems altogether.
See, it's amazing how quickly 'democracy' is taken apart. Now you understand how 'mainstreamers' take you. A couple dissenting voices give rise to compartmentalism and division. It's amazing how quick we are to treat others the same way we are treated.
And you're calling us retards?
You need to work on your reading comprehension.
Questions asked of you:
1) How can I campaign effectively for the presidency in these circumstances?
2) What resources are available to me through the union [...] so that the election can be held on a level playing field?
3) By "poorly researched" I assume you mean that information on the site is incorrect? If so, why don't you tell us where we went wrong?
4) Tell us what articles you are refering to. What misinformation is contained in them?
5) In your learned opinion, what are the issues?
6) Where did anyone try bait "legal counsel" into a debate?
7) Do members who earn barely enough to make ends meet undertake an election campaign under these circumstances?
8) Why are you so angry?
9) So why do you keep coming back?
quote:
A couple dissenting voices give rise to compartmentalism and division. It's amazing how quick we are to treat others the same way we are treated.
How you mined "dissenting" out the idiocy you've portrayed in this thread is beyond me. Your ISP has been notified once already. Your successful attempt at working around features designed to prevent you from accessing the forum is in breach your ISP's TOS. They shall be notified again.
Everyone else: ignore him. I will not ask this again.
edit: sp
You know what really blows me away slek?
When you look around this web site, you see a mountain of information, documents, facts, commentary, debate, opinion, ideas. The commentary and opinion - even when it is scathingly critical - is always supported with some kind of rationale and often with hard evidence.
In the face of this mountain, the best that the establishment can do is send us guys like this Mr. Fire (I think some earlier ones were Lee Harvey Oswald, Lizzie Borden, Tommy da gangster and a few others with these violence-inspired handles) to spew barely coherent mumbo jumbo vitriol. Whether they are sent here or just come over on their own to defend whatever it is that they believe in, it's a sad commentary on the state of the unions.
On the other hand, if this is the best that the establishment can do, maybe it's a good thing that these shmoes show up once in a while. It reminds me that our work is important and necessary and that we are most definitely on the right track.
quote:
And you're calling us retards?
You need to work on your reading comprehension.
I never called anyone retards. I don't know why people are assuming I'm Jack Rabbit; I've posted here before and I'm usually fairly intelligible, and have yet to call anyone a name.
quote:
Questions asked of you:
Questions asked of Jack Rabbit, whom the administrator knows is not me.
quote:
1) How can I campaign effectively for the presidency in these circumstances?
I'm not going to argue that the barrier to entry for a succesful presidency isn't high, because it's not. It's the same as running for any other type of office. However, Jack Rabbit did make a good point that assuming you have enough popular support from coworkers/friends/family, and the ability to reach out and touch the Union (phone/email/web), cost can be limited. Don't assume leaflets and buttons are the only way to campaign.
quote:
2) What resources are available to me through the union [...] so that the election can be held on a level playing field?
Well see, just like any election, the incumbent always has an easier time. However, if enough people are unhappy with the incumbent, more often then not they are quickly replaced. What you have to determine first is that enough people are unhappy with their current leadership; as opposed to just a vocal minority.
quote:
3) By "poorly researched" I assume you mean that information on the site is incorrect? If so, why don't you tell us where we went wrong?
Well, one thing I've noticed about quite a few articles recently is that they're very rarely based on fact; they are based on opinion. At best I can say I disagree with your opinion.
quote:
4) Tell us what articles you are refering to. What misinformation is contained in them?
For example MFD Weekend: Unconscionable statements and union pink slips
Their request for support fell on a smug Sundin. In front of the assembly, Local 1518's President belittled their campaign. "I don't think this is going to be successful", Sundin is reported to have said, "This fight is not working".
Smug, belittled...This is what's commonly referred to as 'biased reporting'. Here was a man, asked for a support for a movement that is an extreme liability (lawsuit pending from the supermarket chain) and several people, unhappy with this position see fit to call him "fat prick" or "entirely inappropriate".
5) In your learned opinion, what are the issues?
6) Where did anyone try bait "legal counsel" into a debate?
7) Do members who earn barely enough to make ends meet undertake an election campaign under these circumstances?
quote:
8) Why are you so angry?
I'm not angry, it's too close to Xmas to be angry.
quote:
9) So why do you keep coming back?
Because I want to see some integrity; I want to see some unbiased, factual reporting. It seems that the UFCW tends to do more good than bad; but 90% of the time, they're raked over the hot coals for what reason? Because they've burned you in the past?
quote:
How you mined "dissenting" out the idiocy you've portrayed in this thread is beyond me. Your ISP has been notified once already. Your successful attempt at working around features designed to prevent you from accessing the forum is in breach your ISP's TOS. They shall be notified again.
[QUOTE]
Seeing as I'm not Jack Rabbit, I don't understand where you're getting my idiocy from, but it's greatly appreciated.
[QUOTE]Everyone else: ignore him. I will not ask this again.
First you ask me to answer questions not asked of me, then you tell them to ignore me...I'm so confused.
Benefit of the doubt.
Mr.Fire, I've removed your IP from the banlist so you can lose the spoofer (we all know you're not from Japan ). But do understand that the IP's we're eerily similar as was the attitude displayed in your posts.
Do us all a favour and register so we won't run into this type of confusion again.
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4) Tell us what articles you are refering to. What misinformation is contained in them?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For example MFD Weekend: Unconscionable statements and union pink slips
Their request for support fell on a smug Sundin. In front of the assembly, Local 1518's President belittled their campaign. "I don't think this is going to be successful", Sundin is reported to have said, "This fight is not working".
Smug, belittled...This is what's commonly referred to as 'biased reporting'. Here was a man, asked for a support for a movement that is an extreme liability (lawsuit pending from the supermarket chain) and several people, unhappy with this position see fit to call him "fat prick" or "entirely inappropriate".
Well, in light of the original question, that isn't a very good example of "mis-information". However, if believing in basic union principles like "solidarity" and "an injury to one is an injury to all" is biased so be it.
Please explain how the movement is an "extreme liability"?
quote:
It seems that the UFCW tends to do more good than bad;
What good has local 1518 done in the last .... oh I don't know, how about 10 years?
I was at that general membership meeting and I asked Brooke some of the questions. One of them was, "Why do the majority of the warehouse members believe that the UFCW itself is mostly responsible for limiting the campaign's effectiveness?"
While the question contains an assertion- that I know what these guys believe - I have worked with them for over 25 years and have spent a considerable amount of time documenting what went on there. I made it my business to talk with as many of the guys as possible and be a voice for them. They overwhemingly concur with what I have written to date.
The reasons why the majority of warehouse members feel the union leadership has prevented this campaign from doing what it could have, are well documented. It is a long list. In the fullness of time I'm sure they will be catalogued in a more condensed form.
Brooke's answer to the question was "I have no clue." Given his position, this answer is either the height of irresponsibility or is a bald faced lie. And it was delivered smugly. We were all shocked by what we had heard and the above is only one example.
What we have been put through at the warehouse, both by the company and the union, has been extremely stressful for us Loman members. When we needed the union behind us the most, we got a political brush-off instead. To then listen to Brooke come right out and say it was outrageous.
To have the arrogance and "smugness" not been illuminated would have been less than accurate. It was real, it was disgusting, and it does require action.
First I would like to say in my oppinion I don't see this sight as a venue for slagging leadership but rather Questioning the leadership.So many good questions so few answers!Perhaps if they openly answered these questions they could justify thier actions instead of feeling "slagged".Beeing the leader of anything you become a target for criticism but have the resources to have youre answers heard.At the childrens xmas party for instance Brooke was asked by a loman brother"after beeing out of work for three mths when we could expect a meeting with our pres."His answer was "I can't have a meeting with you guys yelling at me I have an election to win"See it was all cleared up.We,are still waiting for an open forum on the official sight,and finally I can say I have applied for a position with the local as an agent as I don't think some of ours do a very good job of educating members,as I've talked to many of our members who don't know which union they belong to.I,ve had no reply written or verbal,I guess I don't have enough shit on my nose!!!.
quote:
Benefit of the doubt.
Mr.Fire, I've removed your IP from the banlist so you can lose the spoofer (we all know you're not from Japan
I had originally intended to post from Uzbekistan, but I thought that would be a mite too obvious 
(You actually haven't unbanned my IP as yet)
quote:
Do us all a favour and register so we won't run into this type of confusion again.
Thanks for the offer but no. One of the fundamental components of a successful democracy is anonymity; I choose to hide behind my 'violent' handle.
quote:
Please explain how the movement is an "extreme liability"?
Lawsuits are a liability. In the US however, anti-SLAPP legislation is in the works to prevent such lawsuits.
quote:
What good has local 1518 done in the last .... oh I don't know, how about 10 years?
If you've kept your job and had modest benefits/raises in the past 10 years, it has done it's job.
quote:
(You actually haven't unbanned my IP as yet)
oops! Wrong one.
quote:
If you've kept your job and had modest benefits/raises in the past 10 years, it has done it's job.
Bingo!
So, in in light of the lomans workers (who haven't kept their jobs), would you still suggest that the article you brought up previously, being crtitical of Brooke Sundin and local 1518, still qualifies as mis-information or biased?
quote:
That was the highlight of my day.
Isn't that a quote from some Hollywood movie? I can't place it. Some thug or bigwig is finished beating up on a guy? Or some business guy just threw a bunch of families out of their homes?
Tarantino?
quote:
Bingo!
So, in in light of the lomans workers (who haven't kept their jobs), would you still suggest that the article you brought up previously, being crtitical of Brooke Sundin and local 1518, still qualifies as mis-information or biased?
From what I understand, the Lomans workers were replaced with other Unionized workers who worked cheaper. As far as I can tell, the local 1518 worked them right out of a job.
so, where's the bias then?
quote:
Isn't that a quote from some Hollywood movie?
Kevin Spacey, American Beauty, havin' a wank in teh shower.
quote:
so, where's the bias then?
Maybe the fact that many of these workers were over-paid and under-utilized had something to do with the union replacement. I'd be more inclined to agree with the anger being shown here if the Union was completely replaced by non-union slave labor. Is it not possible that because the 1518 was fighting so hard for their benefit that they were replaced entirely?
quote:
Maybe the fact that many of these workers were over-paid and under-utilized had something to do with the union replacement.
ooooh, I'll let the Loman's boys handle this one.
quote:
I'd be more inclined to agree with the anger being shown here if the Union was completely replaced by non-union slave labor.
An inferior contract and lower wages doesn't count? 250 members out of work doesn't count? Explain?
quote:
Is it not possible that because the 1518 was fighting so hard for their benefit that they were replaced entirely?
Sure, it's possible... until you consider 1518's track record of concessions and sweetheart deals. Check out the history of the 777 agreement, have a look at the way bargaining with OFG & Safeway took place in 96, examine the circumstances surrounding the election in 99, and finally: read some of the documentation surrounding this particular dispute. After all that, it's virtually impossible to believe that 1518's operations are on the up & up.
quote:
ooooh, I'll let the Loman's boys handle this one.
Well, there are two sides to every story, so if they're willing to tell us what their wage was and how busy they were during the day, I'd be happy to chat about it.
quote:
An inferior contract and lower wages doesn't count? 250 members out of work doesn't count? Explain?
250 members of THAT union out of work, how many members of ANOTHER union put into work?
quote:
Sure, it's possible... until you consider 1518's track record of concessions and sweetheart deals. Check out the history of the 777 agreement, have a look at the way bargaining with OFG & Safeway took place in 96, examine the circumstances surrounding the election in 99, and finally: read some of the documentation surrounding this particular dispute. After all that, it's virtually impossible to believe that 1518's operations are on the up & up.
Well, I suppose it's a moot point now that the 1518 isn't involved at all. If by chance, the 1518's actions (IE sweetheart deals, bad bargaining) led to their replacement at Lomans then you could have a valid complaint. Why not ask the company why the Union was replaced instead of placing blame on the Union itself? It takes two to tango.
quote:
It takes two to tango.
Right.
In this instance, the company and the union. Members don't *pay* the company for representation, thus the company is only partially accountable. IOW, you expect this from a company. The members *do* pay the union however. And that changes things entirely.
I want to let someone from loman's tackle the rest of your points. They have a way better grasp of the peculiarities of the situation then I do.
edit: clarification
This is why I love MFD. Sharing information about the facts. "Over-paid and under-utilized"?
That distribution center was a purpose built facility that became the envy of the competition. That facility was torn apart and run into the ground. It lies dormant now and, being at the heart of some very big development, it is a very valuable piece of property.
One may wish to believe that we were just another greedy union,a casualty of capitalism. In the Loman case, it is so far from the truth it's almost funny.
That is the educational power we share here and it keeps all kinds coming back for more.
quote:
That distribution center was a purpose built facility that became the envy of the competition. That facility was torn apart and run into the ground. It lies dormant now and, being at the heart of some very big development, it is a very valuable piece of property.
One may wish to believe that we were just another greedy union,a casualty of capitalism. In the Loman case, it is so far from the truth it's almost funny.
That is the educational power we share here and it keeps all kinds coming back for more.
So, what part of this is the Local 1518's fault?
quote:
Right.
In this instance, the company and the union. Members don't *pay* the company for representation, thus the company is only partially accountable. IOW, you expect this from a company. The members *do* pay the union however. And that changes things entirely.
I want to let someone from loman's tackle the rest of your points. They have a way better grasp of the peculiarities of the situation then I do.
That's an interesting cop-out. Because the union is responsible to you, doesn't make it any more right to say that they've failed to keep things working the way you want them to. I, for one, believe that when it comes to the protection of the workers rights and benefits, unions do their job well; but it isn't their responsibility to ensure that the company keeps them in a job.
If the company went out of business, would you hold the union responsible? If the company decided it wanted to sell the property it owned as opposed to keeping a factory and people employed, is that the union's fault? Direct all ire against the company, not the union. Heck, like I've said many times, I don't support unions, but I definitely do not support companies making money off of the backs of its employees.
MF, your posts reflect a corporate mentality, specifically in your willingness to very loosely use the term "work". You imply that taking full-time jobs and breaking them up into part-time wage slave work is a good thing or that they function as eqivalents under the term "work".
If you do not understand that this difference is at the heart of what unionism is all about, I suggest you have missed the central issue.
How is this 1518's fault? Try the 777 deal for starters. This coincided with OFG corporate decisions to start to break the place up. From a Feb. 23, 2001 letter to David Brighton from Hugh Finnamore comes this, "Prior to Mr. Evans approach to Loblaws, he had a meeting with several UFCW presidents - including Brooke Sundin of Local 1518 and Leif Hansen of Local 2000. He apparently outlined the Teamster threat and was given the OK to do whatever it takes to keep the Teamsters out of UFCW jurisdiction."
Brooke didn't know? Brooke tried to stop it? From the same letter, "However, as the opening of the Superstores came closer the Local 1518 members became agitated about the fact that a special deal was brewing for Superstore. I was advised that Brooke Sundin was starting to waiver in his support of the new local union. To keep Brooke steady, we negotiated a new article 42 whereby pension contributions were to be directed to the Local 1518 Retail Clerks Pension Plan."
What was not defended here was all the nice stuff unions talk about when they mention the relationship between quality collective agreements and family and community life. What we got was a business that had other concerns, namely collecting as many members as possible regardless of consequences to them.
quote:
but it isn't their responsibility to ensure that the company keeps them in a job.
I agree but, from what I understand, this isn't the situation here. What we're dealing with is more along the lines of the union aiding the company in reducing company expenses at the expense of the unions' (ex)members.
edit: Further, it's not the union's responsibility to make the company more profitable.
quote:
but it isn't their responsibility to ensure that the company keeps them in a job.
Well I don't know if it isn't the union's responsibility. The union may not be able to ensure that the company keeps workers employed, shouldn't it be a priority of the union to do everything it can to protect the workers' jobs? If it's not, then what is the union's responsibility?
Expense? Profitability? These words have had no meaning at Loman for a very long time. OFG was content to pour money at breaking up what was one of the best and LEAST EXPENSIVE operation in North America.
Did you know that it is legal to run an operation into the ground as long as the employees are getting paid?
We wish we could have focused on being the cheapest way to provide warehousing for OFG but they were more interested in having the cheapest labour rate. They are not the same thing.
I think the union's responsibility is whatever the members say it is - provided that they're given an adequate opportunity to express their views.
If a union's priorities are not determined by its members, it's just another organization that exists to serve the interests of a handful of priviledged individuals - those who control it. That's not a union. It's a business.
[QUOTE]I agree but, from what I understand, this isn't the situation here. What we're dealing with is more along the lines of the union aiding the company in reducing company expenses at the expense of the unions' (ex)members.
edit: Further, it's not the union's responsibility to make the company more profitable.[QUOTE]
At the risk of sounding corporate, if a company is incurring so many expenses that it may go out of business, I would think co-operation with the union, with the full understanding of union members - reducing expenses, wage-rollbacks, etc - would be completely understandable. In the event that there is no co-operation, then I can see a huge case where the company would either have to find a union more open to such negotiations, or back to slave-labor non-union.
It may not be the union's responsibility to make the more company profitable, but it sure plays a tremendous role in keeping it so. I would think the only method of keeping a happy, productive work-force is to ensure loads of company/union communication, union/member communication and member/member communication. It seems what happened here was a break down at all 3 levels. It's easy to point fingers at the union executives, but the company makes the final call...and deserves more than the flak it's getting. The union exec's may not have tried their hardest, and they may not have kept their membership in the loop completely, but we have no idea of knowing what position the company was in as well.
Why do you think the workers have any responsibility at all to keep the company in business when they have no involvement in decisions related to the business?
quote:
It's easy to point fingers at the union executives, but the company makes the final call...and deserves more than the flak it's getting.
You're probably right, but this isn't a overwaitea (or company) website. Even though we have taken notice of their role in this particular mess; I'm pretty sure that there are a number of criticisms within many of the documents on our site, our primary focus remains the union and how they deal with issues.
quote:
posted by sleK:
[QB]I'm pretty sure that there are a number of criticisms within many of the documents on our site
[QB]
That's the problem with the posts by Jerk Rabid and Mr. Fife - they're not responding to the actual content of the site.
It's a more sophisticated form of trolling: preach common sense as if it were absent. There's probably a latin name for this rhetorical exploit.
quote:
That's the problem with the posts by Jerk Rabid and Mr. Fife - they're not responding to the actual content of the site.
I agree with JD. After reading and reading and reading the posts, I'm left with a mouthful of chaff and a hunger for some real grain!
quote:
You're probably right, but this isn't a overwaitea (or company) website. Even though we have taken notice of their role in this particular mess; I'm pretty sure that there are a number of criticisms within many of the documents on our site, our primary focus remains the union and how they deal with issues.
Yes, but your primary focus goes intensely negative in any company/union struggle. Every instance in this discussion where union leadership has been 'blamed' for the current situation has been spuriously considered at best. We have hard-working men and women, and hard working-unions, but an off-hand comment in response to members yelling at an exec merits a thorough trashing.
quote:
That's the problem with the posts by Jerk Rabid and Mr. Fife - they're not responding to the actual content of the site.
Well, John Doe, if that is your real name, I'm sure that the best way to continue an informed discussion is to branch out like you did.
[QUOT]
It's a more sophisticated form of trolling: preach common sense as if it were absent. There's probably a latin name for this rhetorical exploit.[/QUOTE]
While I'm not quite the master debator that you are, I do believe I've raised quite a few interesting points. Mostly, attack the process, not the man. Creating long-winded diatribes attacking one person (Ken Georgetti - we all remember that one) do not create change, they create animosity and backlash.
quote:
I agree with JD. After reading and reading and reading the posts, I'm left with a mouthful of chaff and a hunger for some real grain!
What kind of real grain do you want? I'm playing Devil's advocate in a place of high-minded groupthink, jump on the people at top because they're not doing anything for us! I'm here saying those people work just as hard as the rest of us. Were I an executive, I'd take the first person who called me 'fat prick' for any reason and show them the door. I'm not the one spewing rhetoric here, I'm 'preaching' for an even-hand look at issues that affect every single person on this board.
I don't blame executives for not wanting anything to do with this site..At it's worst, it's a hate-mongering propaganda when it can be so much more. I've read many good articles on here; just a shame when the writer caters to the lowest common denominator.
Mr. Fire,
I'd look up the definition of "groupthink" if I were you. You are clearly mistaken if you think that's what's happening here.
BTW, you are not "debating" you are laying vague comments before us in what seems an effort to avoid debate. While debate affords you the chance to make vague statements or propositions, the rules of dabate require you to clarify your position or "case." You have not done so.
We humour you because you seem to be lonely and in need of attention. We bait you 'cause your ego won't let anyone have the last word.
As for who visits this site--you'd be astounded at the level of academic, corporate, union organization and governmental curiosity. A tiny fraction of the visitors use the forum to comment. However, many more than those do e-mail the administrator.
You'd be 'mazed....
Mr. Fife said:
quote:
I do believe I've raised quite a few interesting points...
I'm playing Devil's advocate...
Apparently, the points are on your forehead.
quote:
What kind of real grain do you want?
I want to know what sort of future you see for the working people. I want to know what your views are on correcting the injustices piled upon the workers. Are you here willing to participate as an advocate of social justice or to explain the situation through the eyes of the executives, whether corporate or union?
quote:
just a shame when the writer caters to the lowest common denominator.
When a person has their back to the wall, I truly believe tact takes a back seat to anger, which is the lowest common denominator I suppose you are referring to. Perhaps you've never had your back to the wall and had to wonder where the kid's Christmas was going to come from or for that matter, where their next meal was going to come from. But then again, perhaps you've been there. The instinct to survive and the search for the answers to why things are the way they are, somehow take precedence over anything else! This site supports all workers in their trials as well as their jubilations.
quote:
I want to know what sort of future you see for the working people. I want to know what your views are on correcting the injustices piled upon the workers. Are you here willing to participate as an advocate of social justice or to explain the situation through the eyes of the executives, whether corporate or union?
Well, I suppose what I want to see and what I will probably see are two different things. I would like to see a backlash against the mass-marketed, mass-produced 'consumerables' currently plaguing our lives and a return to the modest products offered by small home-based businesses or at the very most, small-businesses that understand the difference between a worker and an employee. This is something the Internet was supposed to expediate, and while it has made things easier, it's still not there yet. In it's stead, I'm expecting to see an increase in contract-based services; companies no longer paying benefits but instead contracting out to individual employees; putting the onus on the employee to provide it's own healthcare, etc etc. The high-tech industries are readily embracing this methodology, which certainly has it's pros and cons. Right now I can't see the typical 'working stiff job' as being a good place to be. With technology becoming even more intrusive, grunt work such as warehouse management, hell, even tellers at supermarkets will, maybe not soon, but sooner than many of us think, with "cheap and efficient" technologies. A damn shame indeed, but the same as the clothing manufacturers during the Industrial revolution...who knew that machinery would one day take their jobs away (And they weren't happy about it either..the etymology of the word sabotage comes from throwing sabots (shoes) into the machinery to gum things up *thanks Star Trek for that history lesson which probably isn't correct *)
The injustices suffered by workers have not changed over the past ...well, ever. The rich get richer, the poor get poorer, and the person that works hard for their family gets by. I'd love to say I have a solution for this, but I don't. Unionization at the turn of the century became the tool of change, but has since become, like many of the members of this board believe, JAB (Just another business). This is mostly why I don't support unions as a whole. So mired in politics and petty corruption that they've forgot their original intent; to protect the worker...and guess what, this is only going to get worse as the unions get bigger and bigger and consolidate more and more members. A union should cover a single industry within a single area. Having cross-country unions led by someone in some large city somewhere that you've never met and can never contact is a dumb idea in the long sad history of dumb ideas. I say disband all unions and let God sort 'em out, but that's just my opinion.
I support social justice. I support the union. I support Ken Georgetti. I support Slek. I support you. I support Lisa Maree. I support weiser. I support Sundin. I support me. I support Jack Rabbit.
Were this a pro-union site slagging the MFD, I would be digging into them for supporting stupid lawsuits against obviously desperate people....but I wouldn't call remote viewer a 'fat prick'. I'd be advocating dialogue and tact instead of sniping...and I'd probably be booted and banned just as quickly as I did here
quote:
When a person has their back to the wall, I truly believe tact takes a back seat to anger, which is the lowest common denominator I suppose you are referring to. Perhaps you've never had your back to the wall and had to wonder where the kid's Christmas was going to come from or for that matter, where their next meal was going to come from. But then again, perhaps you've been there. The instinct to survive and the search for the answers to why things are the way they are, somehow take precedence over anything else! This site supports all workers in their trials as well as their jubilations.
Out with the jubiliations then! Let's see some UFCW goodness! Let's see a Rah Rah UFCW Rah!
I understand the tribulations that all workers have to deal with. This is not a union-specific problem. However, union members benefit because they have a place to lay the blame. I however, have only myself to blame if I lose my job...well, that or the economy, but I can't write angry letters to the economy. If this site is meant to be a pity-me group of people grand-standing against the Big Bad and hand-wringing for the Little Guy, then it really is sad.
quote:
Yes, but your primary focus goes intensely negative in any company/union struggle. Every instance in this discussion where union leadership has been 'blamed' for the current situation has been spuriously considered at best.
No. In almost every case, the circumstances point back to a long sequence of events; generally decisions where the option of personal gain was a factor. This is precisely the reason I believe we go after the leadership. They've earned it, both literally and figuratively.
If the members were better protected and making gains in their collective and individual pursuits of a livelihood, we'd have nothing to write about. It's that simple.
When the leadership is making decisions that adversely affect it's current members and future members, and when these decisions don't result in something resembling the values and goals of unionism, we have, and will continue to utilize, our right to criticize those people and their decisions and bring these issues into the public domain.
There's nothing *spurious* about it.
quote:
just a shame when the writer caters to the lowest common denominator.
Well, it was the only way to get the officials to visit.
It seems to have worked too.
quote:
just a shame when the writer caters to the lowest common denominator.
Well, it was the only way to get the officials to visit.
It seems to have worked too.[/QB][/QUOTE]
That made my day SleK
I wrote it just for you.
quote:
I support social justice. I support the union. I support Ken Georgetti. I support Slek. I support you. I support Lisa Maree. I support weiser. I support Sundin. I support me. I support Jack Rabbit.
That's one hell of a truss.
quote:
That's one hell of a truss.
I like to think I'm a big fellow; like Atlas, only with a smaller world.
quote:
No. In almost every case, the circumstances point back to a long sequence of events; generally decisions where the option of personal gain was a factor. This is precisely the reason I believe we go after the leadership. They've earned it, both literally and figuratively.
Ok, there's a heapload of criticism on this site aimed squarely at Ken Georgetti (Bro_Ken), why?
The keyword there was "generally".
Georgetti is a recent phenomenon, if only because he gives us so much to work with. Check out the CLC news releases, they're quite funny, sometimes downright hilarious.
Example:
quote:
Canadian Labour Congress demands a live broadcast of the first ministers meeting
OTTAWA, Dec. 12 /CNW/ - The Canadian Labour Congress today repeated its
call for the upcoming first ministers conference on health care to be
televised, gavel to gavel, so that all Canadians could see what their
governments were up to.
Wouldn't it be nice if members could see what their unions are up to?
quote:
Responding to a question from the NDP in the House of Commons Tuesday,
asking to have the conference televised, the Prime Minister replied, "I am not
looking for a show. I am looking for results."
"That's the wrong answer," says Canadian Labour Congress President Ken
Georgetti. "Canadians are not asking to be entertained. We're asking to
witness the proceedings. Surely the Prime Minister understands that Canadians
are deeply concerned about this issue and we want to see our representatives
acting in our best interests."
It seems that irony is lost on borKen.
Members have been saying the same shit for years. No effect.
quote:
Georgetti is a recent phenomenon, if only because he gives us so much to work with. Check out the CLC news releases, they're quite funny, sometimes downright hilarious.
Members have been saying the same shit for years. No effect.
Surely this isn't the best you can do? I mean, who said you can't attend union meetings? Heck, I think that post is more pro-Georgetti than anything else
quote:
Surely this isn't the best you can do?
No, I could break out the big guns from back east, but I'll spare you the embarrassment.
The meetings have some problems too, but once again, I'll let someone with more experience step in and relay that.
There was a thread around here recently that had to do with motions and huge bargaining units etc.
It's been tough to sit on the sidelines on this one, other than, well, never mind. You've covered the gamut, from all things good, to all things bad. The one thread of commonality is the place that most good things start, so let me go there. I continue to see social justice be the theme that all of us can get our arms around. Unfortunately, that phrase alone covers way too much territory to rally the masses. If you read through the thread, throw out the name calling, and look at the problems, it all comes back to what is happening to workers. There-in lies the value of this site and those like it. Lamenting workers demise is of little value. Understanding why invariably helps rebuild it. Once we get past the pettiness, and focus on the issues, there is far greater opportunity to produce change. It is amazing to see the tone change when the issues are addressed. I think MrFire's point has been the mainstreamers (at least the smart ones ) will never come while the goal is to destroy them, he's probably right. I've expressed my frustrations that there aren't more of us in leadership roles who are willing to come and have the debate/discussion. If and when they do, it may be too late, hell, it may be too late now.
Maybe what we need is like a "Boy's Nite out." (sorry rv, not meant to be sexist. I think i've seen an occaisional suggestion there are too many of us old fat white guys running unions). We could call a truce on a given nite a week. The topic would be defined as, fill in the blank, and anyone entering would have to stay on subject. The moderator would oversee it. Some basic ground rules would be established. Civility would be expected. Invitations could be sent. Who knows, maybe the brave, and those who are committed to social justice would come, just because we are sick and tired of seeing the same shitty results.
Civility confers the advantage to old fat white guys.
quote:
Civility confers the advantage to old fat white
I'm guessing you're a young, skinny black guy then because you've been the most uncivil of all the posters. 
quote:
return to the modest products offered by small home-based businesses
Are you possibly talking about small home based business' as a cooperative in support of a "common good"?
quote:
contracting out to individual employees; putting the onus on the employee to provide it's own healthcare, etc etc.
What about a health care plan in the US funded through a tax base?
quote:
The high-tech industries are readily embracing this methodology, which certainly has it's pros and cons.
Pro for the industry? Con for the workers?
quote:
Right now I can't see the typical 'working stiff job' as being a good place to be. With technology becoming even more intrusive, grunt work such as warehouse management, hell, even tellers at supermarkets will, maybe not soon, but sooner than many of us think, with "cheap and efficient" technologies. A damn shame indeed
It alsmost sounds like you've already given up on any hope of beneficial change and are becoming somewhat of a fatalist. We need to turn technology around and use it to better society, not destroy it. The internet, IMHO, is merely a tool for us to utilize in order to make the changes, quite a few of us agree, need to be changed for all mankind. The people must not give up! "Hope" is the only way many people survive from day to day. You can't afford to overlook it's power!
quote:
So mired in politics and petty corruption that they've forgot their original intent; to protect the worker...
We must not leave out that these same images of corruption and disregard for justice exist in the corporate rank and file also. We are fighting against a double edged sword wouldn't you say?
quote:
Having cross-country unions led by someone in some large city somewhere that you've never met and can never contact is a dumb idea in the long sad history of dumb ideas.
How about a collective such as this site where your reps are the members and they are here on a daily basis to discuss, educate, and hopefully help a few people in their time of tribulation. Could sites such as MFD and BU, RW, YAWM, and many more being added to the list almost on a daily basis, be the new collective which is to save society and help all people? Perhaps? Do you think that's possible?
quote:
Out with the jubiliations then! Let's see some UFCW goodness! Let's see a Rah Rah UFCW Rah!
See "hope" above! I celebrate every day that we continue to have this freedom and access to communicate in an open matter. And I "hope" it continues forever!
quote:
I however, have only myself to blame if I lose my job...
Believe it or not, we are the same in this regard! I have only myself to blame if I sit back and do nothing and allow these injustices to thrive! Wouldn't you be willing to fight for a decent wage, decent educational opportunities for the children, equality among human beings, or an end to discrimination? Maybe if you had to? You seem like an intelligent human being...what are YOU willing to fight for??
quote:
Are you possibly talking about small home based business' as a cooperative in support of a "common good"? [/QUOT]
I'm not sure...Anything that involves getting a group of people or committee to put to decision usually involves more overhead than anything else. There are always exceptions to the rule, but it's very hard to find people capable of leading any size group. I think specialization and modification of existing product bases by coop's is probably the best bet; with the mass production and mass marketing and expense done by the dinosaurs of the industry.
[QUOTE]What about a health care plan in the US funded through a tax base?
I'm Canadian, I already deal with that
quote:
Pro for the industry? Con for the workers?
Pro for the industry and worker, con for the industry and worker. The industry benefits from decreased administration costs and overhead due to benefit management, etc while the worker benefits from flexibility, an increased self-reliability and the opportunity to 'make their own rules'. However, the industry may become deluged by over-eager mini-contractors and any administration benefit of not having to deal with employees is now elimited by having to deal with contractors on a constant basis. The worker also may become something of a drifter, with no secure employment at any one time. Not everyone is capable of making the right decisions for their future (putting money into RRSPs and retirement funds)
quote:
It alsmost sounds like you've already given up on any hope of beneficial change and are becoming somewhat of a fatalist. We need to turn technology around and use it to better society, not destroy it. The internet, IMHO, is merely a tool for us to utilize in order to make the changes, quite a few of us agree, need to be changed for all mankind. The people must not give up! "Hope" is the only way many people survive from day to day. You can't afford to overlook it's power!
Actually, I just prefer the person-person interaction I get from actually going into a store and dealing with a person behind my desk. Some supermarkets in the are experimenting with tagged merchandise and self-checkouts. What's going to be the social impact of being able to do your shopping and never have to deal with a person behind a counter? Those people removed by such technology, I'm hoping, will move into more information-related careers...but a lot of this has to with education, education, education. I wish that Canada and the US would take a play from the Swiss book and make post-secondary education free for all.
quote:
We must not leave out that these same images of corruption and disregard for justice exist in the corporate rank and file also. We are fighting against a double edged sword wouldn't you say?
The only person I can trust is me, and even he's a bastard a lot of the time.
quote:
How about a collective such as this site where your reps are the members and they are here on a daily basis to discuss, educate, and hopefully help a few people in their time of tribulation. Could sites such as MFD and BU, RW, YAWM, and many more being added to the list almost on a daily basis, be the new collective which is to save society and help all people? Perhaps? Do you think that's possible?
I'd like to say a lot of people would connect to sites like this and share comments, discussions, educations, but there are so many barriers to entry it's pretty much unfeasible. As much as I hate to add another layer of bureaucracy, I'd love to see a completely independant panel that would treat unions as they act, businesses out to make money. As soon as the altruistic aspect of unions is set aside, we can get down to the nitty gritty details.
quote:
See "hope" above! I celebrate every day that we continue to have this freedom and access to communicate in an open matter. And I "hope" it continues forever!
I "hope" you're right..I'm not a big fan of the Gulag.
quote:
Believe it or not, we are the same in this regard! I have only myself to blame if I sit back and do nothing and allow these injustices to thrive! Wouldn't you be willing to fight for a decent wage, decent educational opportunities for the children, equality among human beings, or an end to discrimination? Maybe if you had to? You seem like an intelligent human being...what are YOU willing to fight for??
As terrible as this may sound, I'm going to fight for those things for myself before I fight for those things for anyone else. That may not fit into the community spirit of things but that's the way it's going to be with me. I do, of course, stand up for those who cannot stand up for themselves, and I do rally against the popular opinion on many things.
I don't know what I'm willing to fight for yet. I probably never will.
quote:
The worker also may become something of a drifter, with no secure employment at any one time. Not everyone is capable of making the right decisions for their future (putting money into RRSPs and retirement funds)
I work in the building trades, so I'm already a drifter, although my employment is fairly secure for the moment. As long as I drift! Unlike yourself, there is a large majority of people who do make bad decisions, and I'm sure all of us would welcome your expertise if you would care to share your knowledge on investments!
quote:
I "hope" you're right..I'm not a big fan of the Gulag. As soon as the altruistic aspect of unions is set aside, we can get down to the nitty gritty details.
You may not be a fan of the Gulag, but you are starting to sound like one of the guards of the Gulag.
quote:
As terrible as this may sound, I'm going to fight for those things for myself before I fight for those things for anyone else.
I'll leave you with the quotes of Pastor Martin Niemöller. He said it better than I ever could!
First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.
quote:
I don't know what I'm willing to fight for yet. I probably never will.
Believe it or not, I "hope" you never have to find out. We already have enough suffering in our countries. What we need are solutions, not more "back-to-the-wall" human beings!
I think that you have just landed on the fundamental difference between us "next wave" thinkers, L., and the traditional labour establishment:
We conceive of a world where we deserve more and can achieve more than a life time of institutionalized misery and isolation from each other.
Keep that thought! 
There is a troubling similarity between Mr. Fire's statements and this statement in an August 22, 1997 newspaper article by Tom Fawkes, a UFCW Local 1518 communications expert.
"Overwaitea, Safeway and others have all said they're not interested in providing careers any more. I think not to tell people entering the retail grocery business today that there is no future here is wrong. This is a job to get you a better education, or a trip to Europe".
I think what it means is, "You're screwed, get used to it."
quote:
I think that you have just landed on the fundamental difference between us "next wave" thinkers, L., and the traditional labour establishment:
Ahhh, the "third wave" ?
quote:
While no one knows what exactly the next wave era will bring, the next wave thinking suggests:
-That there will be a heightened awareness of the interconnectness of and interdependence among things - people, communities, the environment and governing and economic institutions.
-That there will be a reorganization of priorities at every level of existence (social, political, economic) - from self-interest to collective good.
-Generally that we will see a more humane and balanced world. We will see ourselves as members of a community rather than selfish consumers of goods and services.
-Business and economic institutions will continue to exist but the pursuit of profit will be but one of a number of "bottom line" goals.
-The businesses of the next wave will recognize their interdependence with and responsibility to people and communities.
-Work and the workplace will change in great big fundamental ways.
Yes, that's it! That wave thing. I think it's already happening, it's just hard to see it when you're in the middle of it. This is why I have taken to calling our mainstream friends, "the labour movement" and ourselves, "the emergent community of workers".
What lovely circles hell has.
Somewhere in this thread it was suggested that MFD should be responsible for publishing the Loman leaflet. It was countered that UFCW1518.com might want to consider this too. After all, they were paid to do that and no one at MFD gets paid for anything.
Still don't see the Loman leaflet on the front page of ufcw1518.com. Just an icon to click on. Other members could print and share.It could change every month. "Now I'm unemployed and there's nothing under the tree."
What UFCW Fear prevents this from happening?
They are just playing head games with the Lomans workers. It's ridiculous for the ufcw to suggest that MFD ought to publish the leaflet rather than Local 1518. Local 1518 is the workers' representative. If the Local is in favour of getting the leaflet "out there", it should. Why would it suggest that MFD should do it instead? IMO, I don't think the local wants anything further to do with these members and for some reason has always been very uncomfortable with their leafletting campaign.
The "why doesn't MFD publish the leaflet?" question is intended to make the workers feel hostile towards MFD and/or to promote the sense that nobody really cares about them.
BTW, the leaflet has been posted on this web site since July 2002. Both authorized and unauthorized versions are available in the files and docs section.