Well, I just can't believe they went and did it. It is almost like the moon landing. They've got some pretty good stuff in their demands as well. We'll have to take a closer look.
What do you think compelled them to do this?
A small step for unionkind a giant step for ufcw
Check this out. 
Well I've read the contract proposals on the 1518 web site. All I can say is... "that dog won't hunt" 
It's one thing to promise the world, it's quite another to deliver the goods. For starters, they're current crop of business agents [or what ever they're calling themselves these days] are underqualified and sub par at best, so how in the world do they plan to enforce these new rules of conduct? And why do these fines go to the union and not the members effected? From what I've seen and heard in the past the UFCW does a piss poor job of enforcing the current CBA, what makes anyone think that will change post 2003?
Now I do like alot of the proposals, #5, 9, 10, 26,32,33,41,107 in particular. But a lot of them a pure cannon fodder they know damn well this employer isn't going to agree too when the union they're up against is spit in two. [zone 1 &2] They're only on the table today because these amatures think the way to approach negotiations is to ask for the moon and trade off issues until all your chips are in play. Precisely the kind of useless negotiating that's seen the living wages of retail clerks drop off in the past 15yrs. [sun tan lotion? is that some kind of joke?] 
These are serious times 1518 members are facing and they need a serious leadership that's prepaired for the task at hand. Not some amatures that post a wish list simply to look good for a few days/weeks/months only to have it stuffed down their throats when the gloves come off, demoralizing the members in the process. The issues on the table should be real, concrete and attainable and they should have more than the scope of today in mind. Now admitedly I've very tired so I may have missed it... but I didn't see a mandate to eliminate the seperate zone language that strips half the members of their right to vote. This to me is a very serious issue and it has to be addressed. I also still see a two tired agreement... only now instead of wages clerk two's are just stuck with the shifts nobody else wants. [unionism is not screwing your brother/sister]
Furthermore, in that whole contract wish list I still didn't see them amend or scrap section 21.03 that strips shop stewards of their rights under the provincial labour code to act as "equals" with management in carrying out their lawful steward duties. The UFCW has still religated them to "observer and not a participant" which will make it damn near impossible for a steward to police the CBA and protect the rights of other members ragardless of what pie in the sky CBA they come up with. And we are all far too familiar with the UFCW's track record for fast and efficient service.
Bottom line, I'll believe they're serious about attaining these things when I see the employer's sign off on them. Until then when I see things like #27&28 still on the table I'll be reminded of this George Strait song ;
quote:
I've got some Ocean front property in Arizona,
from my front porch you can see the sea.
I've got some Ocean front property in Arizona,
and if you'll buy that I'll throw the Golden gate in Free.
Scott: I gotta respectfully disagree with you on this one. Nobody knows better that: proposals don't a contract make. Having said that, this is an important first step in setting up for these negotiations. You know how critical it is to establish strong, clear communication. That's what this was. Don't let your resentment of the past colour the view of the future.
. That's right, two thumbs up on this one. First to UFCW 1518 for stepping up and out with these proposals (you know they were one of the first UFCW locals on-line), and second to MFD for acknowledging them. Every negotiations we go to these days is critical to the future of retail workers. While there may be a little bad blood, the first thing an only thing that really matters is that workers come out of these negotiations with what they need and deserve. Hopefully any past animosities will not preempt a commitment by both to work towards a good settlement.
quote:
Don't let your resentment of the past colour the view of the future.
Is that right Bill.
quote:
The Scorpion and the Frog
One day, a scorpion looked around at the mountain where he lived and decided that he wanted a change. So he set out on a journey through the forests and hills. He climbed over rocks and under vines and kept going until he reached a river.
The river was wide and swift, and the scorpion stopped to reconsider the situation. He couldn't see any way across. So he ran upriver and then checked downriver, all the while thinking that he might have to turn back.
Suddenly, he saw a frog sitting in the rushes by the bank of the stream on the other side of the river. He decided to ask the frog for help getting across the stream.
"Hellooo Mr. Frog!" called the scorpion across the water, "Would you be so kind as to give me a ride on your back across the river?"
"Well now, Mr. Scorpion! How do I know that if I try to help you, you wont try to kill me?" asked the frog hesitantly.
"Because," the scorpion replied, "If I try to kill you, then I would die too, for you see I cannot swim!"
Now this seemed to make sense to the frog. But he asked. "What about when I get close to the bank? You could still try to kill me and get back to the shore!"
"This is true," agreed the scorpion, "But then I wouldn't be able to get to the other side of the river!"
"Alright then...how do I know you wont just wait till we get to the other side and THEN kill me?" said the frog.
"Ahh...," crooned the scorpion, "Because you see, once you've taken me to the other side of this river, I will be so grateful for your help, that it would hardly be fair to reward you with death, now would it?!"
So the frog agreed to take the scorpion across the river. He swam over to the bank and settled himself near the mud to pick up his passenger. The scorpion crawled onto the frog's back, his sharp claws prickling into the frog's soft hide, and the frog slid into the river. The muddy water swirled around them, but the frog stayed near the surface so the scorpion would not drown. He kicked strongly through the first half of the stream, his flippers paddling wildly against the current.
Halfway across the river, the frog suddenly felt a sharp sting in his back and, out of the corner of his eye, saw the scorpion remove his stinger from the frog's back. A deadening numbness began to creep into his limbs.
"You fool!" croaked the frog, "Now we shall both die! Why on earth did you do that?"
The scorpion shrugged, and did a little jig on the drownings frog's back.
"I could not help myself. It is my nature."
Then they both sank into the muddy waters of the swiftly flowing river.
"Its my Nature", said the Scorpion...
I guess eventually we'll all find out one way or another won't we?
quote:
You know how critical it is to establish strong, clear communication.
This isn't communication. At this moment it is possible to engage a running *dialogue* with members.
Furthermore, only a select few ever submit proposals. There are more efficient & more effective means of aquiring the information necessary to represent *actual* needs & interests of the membership. A multiple day conference of 300 select members (of 26,500) & stewards, all of which are at a disadvantage because of an inefficient (to non-existant) education in these matters, is a poor example of representation.
In order for a union to operate successfully against todays' businesses it is imperative that they innovate. Static information on a web page isn't enough.
IMO, this is a cop-out effort on behalf of the UFCW. They can do better but, either (a) they don't want to do better, or (b) they're too stupid to do better.
My money's on (a).
What's odd is that the real problem lies with the UFCW undercutting itself. Locals accross the land and sometime within the same locale are in a race to the bottom. Sweetheart deals abound.
Now everyone knows that Safeway and Overwaitea won't stop until they have the same deal as Loblaws' Real Canadian Superstore/Warehouse Club/Extra Foods/Western Grocers.
To ask for "more" ato when the UFCW gave it up for Loblaws is odd indeed.
Local 1518 gave up its bargaining clout when it bargained the stupid practice of allowing Safeway and Overwaitea to keep half their bargaining units working while the other half bargains and perhaps strikes. Likewise for having to have the proposals in almost a year in advance.
The union asks for things that its proven it will give up, but doesn't have the power to extract.
I think the only reason why UFCW Canada is being so communicative is because they know that if it ain't on their sites it will be on this one. This site has been a great disencentive for Locals like 401 to create a web presence. They have a domain, and they put up pages for specific fights, like the Superstore empty war of words, but they know if they put up a proper site, they will have to communicate in a meaningful way or face ridicule from their own members.
I don't think the Local 1518 proposals went up any easier than the UFCW consitution, or for better reason.
That being said, it's a good thing that the proposals are published. Let's hope that all activity related to those proposals and bargaining are acurately published in a timely manner.
This thread has a good report on how UFCW deals affect other UFCW contracts.
Recommended reading: Arthur Shostak; Cyber Union. From page#156:
CyberUnions will offer members the service of an internal computer network, either a mailing list or bulletin board. It will be uncensored, free wheeling, and the host for suggestions, passions, hopes, frustrations, and rants.
These forums will permit a higher level of candor than ever before associated with union exchanges. Mechanisms will permit even anonymous postings, though this does not mean that any and all commentary is acceptable. Harassment (flaming) will not be tolerated, and unionists will be guided by the same policies as when they talk face to face.
I'll come back to this in a minute.
Shostak lays out three kinds of unions in the cyber world; cyber naught, cyber drift and cyber gain. It is facinating reading and i would encourage anyone interested to pick it up.
Now to the point of this post. In 1995, we were looking to enter the cyber world. I found one union that was light years ahead of the rest. They not only had a website, they had a message board that allowed exactly what Shostak said on page 156. The reason it was taken down, in my opinion, was for the absolutely vile things people posted on it. I marveled at how Brooke would allow that kind of stuff being said, for the whole world to see. MFD would never allow those kinds of attacks, or that foul language to be put up.
If my math is correct, Local 1518 was a cyber gain union, 4 years before Shostak wrote his book or 3 years before Slek got his first computer. I know the leadership at 1518 is more than capable of defending themselves. My point is only that before you get too critical, it's important to know the history. Fact is when i get burned when i'm trying to be progressive, i too become more cautious.The proposals on line may not be the way you think it should be, but it's a nice step in the right direction.
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and unionists will be guided by the same policies as when they talk face to face.
Does that sound like the same ole' same ole' to anyone else? Oops we tried, didn't work, shut it down. Down the road we'll be called the little local that tried.
quote:
The reason it was taken down, in my opinion, was for the absolutely vile things people posted on it.
It is possible to have a civil exchange without cutting off the flow. It's the ad-hom rule sleK applied to this site so well and it didn't take 7yrs. I can't believe all the experience and expertise the machine can buy, couldn't figure this out .
quote:
I marveled at how Brooke would allow that kind of stuff being said, for the whole world to see.
Obviously if it no longer exists he didn't allow it. I marvel at the thought that leaders still use the word allow when referring to the Power Source.
quote:
MFD would never allow those kinds of attacks, or that foul language to be put up.
Yet there is still a productive message board. And no-one has been shut down.
quote:
If my math is correct, Local 1518 was a cyber gain union, 4 years before Shostak wrote his book or 3 years before Slek got his first computer.
They gave it a shot but didn't seem all that interested in perfecting it. It's the same ole' "ah .. we tried but the membership didn't follow the rules so we had to take control" sh**.
quote:
I know the leadership at 1518 is more than capable of defending themselves. My point is only that before you get too critical, it's important to know the history.
There are machine sites as far as the eye can see. And from what you say they were pioneers. And after all this time they really haven't accomplished a successful interactive internet program that's good for everyone. sleK is right on when he said they either don't want to or they are too stupid.
quote:
Fact is when i get burned when i'm trying to be progressive, i too become more cautious.The proposals on line may not be the way you think it should be, but it's a nice step in the right direction.
A small step for unionkind a giant step for ufcw That's enough credit til they get it right.
quote:
The proposals on line may not be the way you think it should be, but it's a nice step in the right direction.
Bill's it's far to simplistic to pigeon toe our coments into a black and white "it's not what we would have done" picture frame. You forget, we've lived with these guys for yrs, we've been to the puppet show and we've seen all the strings. The motivation behind this is so transparent it's comical. Forgive me if I don't jump to pat these guys on the back for doing their job. Big deal. To me it's like some guy saying "hey, I take care of my kids" Your supposed too ya dummy, what do want..a cookie?
1518 members don't need a flock of peacocks struting around showing everybody their feathers hoping they look good. Every contract it's the same damn thing, the UFCW promise's workers the Gold mine and then they give them the shaft. And it's everbodys fault but theirs. "The workers wouldn't support us", "the employer is going to take their toys and go home", "the government is out to get us", "the media is the lacky of big business" etc etc etc.
I see this list and I see a so called union leadership clueless as to how to go about entering negotiations with a winning strategy. It looks to me like the idea is to create a huge list of demands so they can conceed on several of the more outlandish proposals hoping it will soften up the employer and convince them to give in on a few more important issues. I can hear it now... "we gave in on some of ours so you should give in on some of yours". What is this, kindergarden?
Members sitting on Santa Brookes knee and asking for a bunch of toys is no way to head into negotiations. Yes members should make proposals, but shouldn't there also be thoughtful debate as to which proposals are realistic, important and why? Wouldn't a forum for members to first discuss and outline an overall strategy as to what they "need" to achieve serve as an effective compass when these proposals are debated on? don't you think the unions "leadership" should take a leadership role in these debates, stimulating dialoge and asking insightful questions?
You build a house from the ground up. Proposals are not the foundation by which you form your negotiating teams strategy. Your just setting yourselves up for a position bargaining pattern that seldom works and then only when the union has the ability to bully the employer into agreement. So while Identifying key issues is important, what happens when you set out to sea in a ship without a compass?
I see this list and I see nothing that would indicate what the union hopes to achive to better the lives of 1518 members both short and long term. I see no direction. Just a blanket list of promise's, hopes and dreams viod of any meaning or explanation as to why each issue is important, and I think 1518 members deserve a hell of lot more.
Scott: Two quick points and then my observation. I said when i came here i wouldn't rip another union, or their leadership. There have been times where i have abstained in discussions for that very purpose. And, you are right, i haven't "lived" with them for years. I wanted to make the point with the post about 1995, because sometimes the bias here misses parts of the truth. I've also stated my phylosophy that i never waste any energy worrying about what was, it has absolutely no value. The only thing that matters is what we do going forward. I think some of you would be better served embracing that same concept, life would be a whole lot more meaningful.
Now to the proposals on line. It appears to me they started this process a while back (good). They engaged members to draft these ideas (good). They discussed them at a stewards conference and posted them on line so members had a chance to read them and comment or question (good). All of this amounts to an excellent starting point. All of these steps are essential in contract preparation, especially where safeway is involved. They've clearly shown what their game plan is unless the union is willing to stand strong. The only way that happens is if you get members engaged early and often.
At the risk of pissing some of you off, the only thing that should matter is what happens to the members in these negotiations. If you feel 1518 should have gone further, tell us what it is. To critisize their efforts only undermines that which you claim to be here to defend, the workers.
Bill, let's do a quick comparison between your Local and Local 1518.
You're willing to take flack and defend against the flack. That's because you have some pretty darned good defenses. Local 1518 ripped their "comments" capability out when the heat got too much to bear. Rather than using the threads to address member concern they went into "secrecy" mode.
Fancy pages and a bunch of words are sometimes simply prettied-up propaganda.
Bill, you seem more interested in substance. This site has caused some of the UFCW Canada locals to do a better job, but not because they wanted to or because they thought it was the right thing to do.
W:Does the end justify the means or does the means justify the end, or in this case does it matter? Outcomes, outcomes.
Knowing why it's happening is extremely valuable. However, I think it's great no matter why it's happening.
I think the "change or get out of the way" slogan should be changed to "If you can't logically and morally defend it, change it."
There's no magic to this site or others similar to it. What this site does is create an "opposition" party to union governance.
When Local 1518 gave members the ability to publicly complain, they also gave the leadership the opportunity to respond. By taking that ability away from their members, they shut down dissent and they did the leadership, in fact the union movement, a great harm by perpetuating the stereotype of the closed, secretive and undemocratic union.
I think a public defense goes a long way to helping union leaders think seriously about what their members are saying and providing logical responses. Does government operate in total secrecy? In some cases, yes, but in relation to general business, no they don't. The media reports and many government meetings are televised.
I'm not saying the Local 1518 site is dirt because it definitely isn't (I think it's even taken a few pointers from sleK). Local 1518 is light years ahead of its 10,000-member neighbor Local 247. Those dudes can't or refuse to get a web page together.
Local 1518 is getting better and can get a heck of a lot better. However, it's the loyal opposition that is the driving force.
I think simple "opposition" as a catalyst for reform is important and worthy of study.
The truth is:
discussions and answers are hard, near impossible to get.
Stewards thought the proposals were a joke, even the ones that aren't supposed to be a joke.
And ...
give me a break the posting of the proposals is a show, a peacock with 2 feathers. None of this stuff will see the light and the P.S. will never know. 1518 is built on secrets and lives under the code of silence. The die was cast in '89 and '96. The parade route has been mapped and all the parties have to do is make sure their floats are decorated and running smoothly.
The posting of the proposals is in IMHO, a feeble attempt at looking progressive. Yes it finally happened but it is not the big breakthrough.
It's a small part of what they are paid to do and should have done before they were shamed into it and that's especially true in this case because yet again ... the machine has kept the big information to themselves, didn't even disclose it at the conference and it certainly is not on the site.
The 1518 contract reads: The union will notify the Employer within one (1) year but not less that (sic) 6 months ...... as to which Bargaining Unit Zone the union intends to bargain.
The contract expires March 31 2003.
Gee, I'm such an agreable person. I agree with Bill and with Siggy.
I think it's great that Local 1518 is moving in the right direction with their web presence and that a lot of the stuff they do and have done is supreme crap.
I think I said earlier that it doesn't really matter that the proposals are on-line because Local 1518 has bargained away its clout. Having to put in the proposals one year in advance allows the employer to do all sorts of crap leading up to bargaining and it can't become an issue until the next round.
Not only that but the employer gets to mull over where the union is comming from and smooth over some practices until bargaining is over, so that the members think the problem has gone away.
The one year proposal thing is weird and the half the bargaining unit negotiating and striking while leaving the other half working is bizarre.
I know Bill probably has an opinion on those weird things, but it wouldn't be politically wise for him to comment.
Hey, Bill. We've got to work out a secret code for you.
W; No secret code needed. Over the years i've had to deal with stuff i didn't like. Some inherited, some self imposed. In the end, it doesn't matter. It is what it is. Once you accept that, then you can start putting together a stategy or a game plan for the next negotiations. I look at each one as an entity unto themselves. I always try to give myself lots of time.The dynamics are set by factors often beyond my control: the membership, the economy, the employers. There is a host of things that influence my actions; my style, my attitude, my demeanor all are fluid based on whats going on around me. It is a direct correlation to the situational leadership model.
Here's the other thing that plays a huge part in the decisions. In fact it was discussed in an earlier thread. Setting goals. I always ask the questions; what do you want? where do you want to end up? what am i doing, and why?
So let me be politically incorrect and ask the question of MFD. What is your goal? What do you want to be? Is your goal to help the members of 1518 get a better settlement, or is it to be critical of them in hope they fail?
why is it in order to be seen as good unionists it's the innocent who have to accept and live with the bad behaviour of the guilty in order to avoid being seen as "distructive" ?
If you ask me, the goal of this web site is to empower workers by providing information, insight, perspective and the opportunity to communicate.
Providing information, insight and perspective involves presenting views that are not always popular and not always pleasant or uplifting. Empowering workers (or any group of oppressed people) doesn't mean pumping them up with false hope or unrealistic expectations. It means providing information that they can use to understand and control their environment.
When a Local with the track record of 1518 presents bargaining proposals like those that it recently posted on its web site, there are positive and negative perspectives that need to be explored by the members.
On the plus side, the proposals are extensive, seek to make up lost ground and even to break new ground. They could send a message to the employer that the union is looking for substantial gains and is prepared to put up a fight to get them.
On the minus side, members need to know that the union is unlikely to achieve many of these demands and - again, given the history of this local - need to satisfy themselves that their leaders are serious about this as opposed to just putting on a show (big on bravado in the early going, only to capitulate in the end - "Oh well, we tried.")
How does understanding this empower workers? It gives them the ability to keep their representatives focused on what is really important and also to put pressure on the National and International union to support them.
There are a lot of proposals on Local 1518's list. Members may want to tell their local leaders which out of all the proposals are "must have's" or most important so that the leaders know which items to hold on to when they inevitably have to drop something.
They may also want to find out what the National office is prepared to do to back them in bargaining and pressure the company into agreeing to the more important issues. If the staffers at the National office are not thinking about this, now's the time to get after them.
When it's time for the pre-bargaining pep rallies or message discipline members can come armed with questions so that they can control the agenda and whatever course of action is decided on.
Understanding what can happen is important - especially if it's happened before. If you don't know where the landmines are, you are more likely to trip over them, aren't you. When people like Siggy and Scott talk about some of the things that have happened in earlier negotiations, I think that they are simply alerting members to the location of certain land mines. There's nothing destructive about that.
One thing we often forget about this site is that MFD is not telling workers how things ought to be. It's telling them about how things work so workers themselves can decide for themselves how they want things to be.
Well said rv. The two best tools of empowerment are education and communication. I think the combination of what is going on between the two sites can ultimately strenghten the membership. What is critical is to stay focused on that goal. Hate to say it, cause it sounds manipulative, but that was the point of the question. If you can identify and articulate it, then its far easier to recognize when you drift from it. These negotiations are as critical as any going on around the country. I follow as many as i can, and there appears to be a concerted effort to challenge members and their unions wherever there is any sign of weakness. Strategically, i hate to use the old cliche, but i think it is appropriate: A good a$$ kicking offense is better than some pissy ant defense (i think i may have surgically modified that to sound more effective).
You guys are talking like the P.S. have more input into the 1518 proposals. or say in how the negotiating goes. yeah right.
1518 P.S. won't see anything 'til the machine comes to us to ratify the table scraps. We'll have a couple hrs in the room to discuss and vote. Won't even have that if you're not in the right zone.
The P.S. got to put together a wishlist then 300 + 1 (Gord from Lomans) people got to pick which ones would move forward, looks like they all made it. Now it's up to the machine and negotiating committee. Ain't no more P.S. input or discussion.
The retail bargaining conference, I assume, discussed each wish. Why wasn't the discussion summarized and included with posted the proposals? In the current agreement each section bounces off another, no way in hell to figure out how the proposed changes will apply, especially regarding senior and junior language.
The machine is not interested in discussing or allowing any more interaction. The only thing up in the air about the 2003 negotiations, is how long to keep the strike line without eating into the profits. The die is cast ...
Bill P. said:
quote:
So let me be politically incorrect and ask the question of MFD. What is your goal? What do you want to be? Is your goal to help the members of 1518 get a better settlement, or is it to be critical of them in hope they fail?
It's hard for the "MFD" to respond because there is no leader, so everyone would have to respond.
That being said, personally, I would like to see 1518 members prevail. I would like to see UFCW members regain ground lost by greed and inept leadership. I believe that in 1518's case that the 1/2 and 1/2 bargaining deal is crap--real stinky crap. I think having to put your proposals in one year in advance is supremely stupid. I think the Local 777 deal is an abomination, and if it isn't brought up to parity with the Local 1518 agreements they will continue to slide until they are brought down to parity with the 777 rag.
If you don't criticize the stupid moves and expose idiocy, how can the Power Source ever force better from their leaders and the employers?
Two questions, Bill:
1) Do you think Brooke Sundin was exceptionally bright to have bargained clauses that allow the employers to continue operating one zone in a two-zone system in the event of a strike?
2) Do you think that repeated stupid performance by leaders, individually or collectively, should remain uncriticized?
quote:
) Do you think Brooke Sundin was exceptionally bright to have bargained clauses that allow the employers to continue operating one zone in a two-zone system in the event of a strike?
Geez weez you want i should just go slash my wrists and then they won't have to put me in trusteeship? Let me take a whack at this and see if i can answer in a tactful, tasteful yet still truthful manner. Without knowing any of the facts, there may be different zones because there are different agreements based on the economics of the zones. In that case, i could see how or why they ended up seperate. For instance, a couple of years ago we started negotiating small store contracts. They all expire at the same time,but are negotiated and voted seperately. Some members didn't like it, but the employer had the right to do it. Again, i don't know the specifics, but i would expect the employer made those demands at the bargaining table. Were they coupled as a part of a settlement? I think it is problematic for leadership to refuse to bring a bundled settlement back for a membership vote. If i knew more, i might better be able to explain why. Then again, in this case, ignorance may be bliss.
quote:
Do you think that repeated stupid performance by leaders, individually or collectively, should remain uncriticized?
No, i think critisizm goes with the territory. I get my share. I think repeated critisizm for stupid performances by leaders becomes as destructive as the stupid performance. Another words, if you want to make a carreer out of being critical, you'll never have much to put on your gravestone other than; Here lies ___ ___, they whined a lot. My point is, at some point, get over it and go forward. You can't change the fact there are two zones, you can help plot a strategy to deal with the circumstances. Constructive, not destructive.
quote:
We'll have a couple hrs in the room to discuss and vote.
Actually last time when people got up to voice their disapproval of the CBA proposals 1518 admini's turned the mic's off and told everyone they had to vote.
Bill it's too bad your left holding the ball for the entire UFCW. It can't be easy walking into the lions den with a pork chop around your neck but your doing just that and I admire that you at least try to explain where it is your coming from. I do see your point believe me. We've always offered to put aside our problems with the administration despite our very serious difference's if our help would benefit the P.S.
You've come along here late in the day. This was more than a web page. Siggy and I traveled up and down the Island trying to inform our members of their rights during the OFG threats of closure. David and I were at the Maple Ridge store closure meeting armed with information that ultimately turned out to be what had that store recently declared a "replacement store". MFDers were picket captains on the Superior Poultry line, we offered our web site during the Fletchers strike to inform people about what meat was fletchers, hot loads etc. We have always tried to put the members needs ahead of our differences. It's the administration that can't boast the same and frankly I'm tired of the scorpian stinging me in the back with that damn stinger.
These guys will never change. It's nieve to think otherwise. So I'm not about to bang my head against that wall any longer. Fair enough?
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
) Do you think Brooke Sundin was exceptionally bright to have bargained clauses that allow the employers to continue operating one zone in a two-zone system in the event of a strike?
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Geez weez you want i should just go slash my wrists and then they won't have to put me in trusteeship?
It's ok Bill, I'll answer it for you:
Brooke was exceptionally stupid.
Why are you so scared to criticize your colleagues?
Could it be that *internal rot* that keeps coming up in discussion?
quote:
I think repeated critisizm for stupid performances by leaders becomes as destructive as the stupid performance.
Not until everybody affected is aware of it. Then it becomes redundant.
Scott: You are absolutely right about me coming to this late in the game. I can't begin to understand what happened in the early days, and so if my comments seem unduely harsh, it's not an attack on you, others or mfd. I'm not sure how many people (members or leaders) realize what is going on all around North America. The internet has allowed us the ability to see things that we never would have begun to picture. In the past, everything was just a thousand pieces of the mosaic. Today, those pieces all begin to fit together, and it is terrifying to see what it looks like.
In an earlier post, i talked about Arthur Shostik's book, CyberUnion. There was a part of it that i found really facinating. He teaches futuristics at Drexel University. His contention is that unionists should be taking that kind of class to prepare for what is in front of them. He's right, though i'm afraid none of us would like what we see. IMHO, the only way to stop it from happening is to get out in front of the mess and do your damndest to prevent it. I'm afraid the only thing that has any chance at all is a proactive, aggressive in your face assault. Without it, your predictions for the demise of the labor movement is emminent.
Bill, I can understand where you're comming from. International unions have huge power to shut down those who don't conform. Telling the truth can be very dangerous if silence is conformity.
I did notice that you mentioned that it was an employer suggestion that zones prevail. When a union has to pick which zone will bargain and which will sit on the sideline, that's nuts. When any union signs an agreement prohibiting a "zone" from bargaining and striking, that's nuts.
Why couldn't both zones bargain at the same time? Why couldn't they strike at the same time?
Let's go back to the Loblaws and UFCW "Partnering Agreement" where the UFCW agreed that no two stores would ever have the same exirey date and that the UFCW would never, ever apply to the Labour Board to have the stores consolidated into a single bargaining unit.
When I suggested that you need a code to speak freely, I wasn't kidding. If you truly spoke your mind, all your good work might very well be crushed by a trusteeship.
However, Bill, they won't always have supreme power over what you say and what you do--unless they have ways of forgetting to put your pension cheque in the mail. Bill, you may just be one of those controlled by "the secret code of union officialdom."
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Herbert Benson calls the rules, 'The secret code of union officialdom.' In his 1999 article Rising Tide of Union Democracy, Mr. Benson says, 'the chiseled-in-stone commandments that govern relations among union officials, is a code seldom broken that mandates loyalty, mutual support, and a live-and-let-live attitude…. In its most extreme and debased form, the code prescribes that you may run your union as you see fit-even honestly-as long as I am permitted to run mine as I see fit, without public criticism."
Unfortunately, the system is designed to enforce the "code" and that's what's wrong with unions. The system is also desinged to protect the operation of the "code" so there's little opportunity to change it.
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so if my comments seem unduely harsh, it's not an attack on you, others or mfd.
I don't think tough questions that force you to re-evaluate yourself and your actions/inactions are harsh in any way and I'm glad you keep asking them. They're damn good questions and quite frankly I really have to think about the answers.
I'd rather you didn't get your local trusteed by stating what's rather obvious. Anytime a union strips members of their right to vote on a contract that effects them they've failed. I made up my mind to vote no in '97 after I read that on the first page and if it's not amended in these negotiations it really doesn't matter what the UFCW achieves, it will still be a failure.
Bill these guys are who they are, they will never change. You can dress them up in a bunny suit but it won't make them the easter bunny. Sure, nobody has a crystal ball that can see into the future but my guess is the employer will carry the day and the UFCW will blame the members for not supporting the strike effort through the dues assesment.
It's ironic if you think about it....Normally they take bucks out of the members pockets, but this time they'll pass the "buck" to the membership.
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Bill, you may just be one of those controlled by "the secret code of union officialdom."
dubya; there is an amount of truth in your post, but there is also a respect due those in the business for what they have done. Please don't tell me they've done nothing, i know better. It's that old walked a mile in their shoes thing. Like the discussion that got us here, i have no idea why they ended up with two zones. I'm sure there were reasons. I've been around along time and i've seen way too much. I've lobbied for the movement to try and break from the patterns that have become such a miserable failure. It took me about twelve minutes on the inside to recognize that if just did what the guy in front of me did, i was doomed to the same outcome. The leadership series at the u of m was awesome. It opened my eyes to a whole new perspective. Could i come on mfd and piss and moan about other leaders? Sure, but what purpose would it serve. What would the end game be? What goal would it help me reach. If i come on and share a story, talk about our successes, isn't that infinately more poweful than peeing in someones boot?
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Bill these guys are who they are, they will never change.
Scott, no offense brother, you are wrong. They already have changed. We all are. The internet and web sites like this make us (leadership) all more accountable. Some see it quicker than others. Some will resist more than others. In the end, no-one will escape it. It is intimidating to think that someone can go on line and get the wage of every union officer and staffer in the country. The knowledge thing is empowerment. It is just beginninng. JD sent me 4 emails at work today from workers who are interested in doing something about their crappy conditions at work. We only are beginning to make this thing happen. The leadership of our unions will have no choice but to embrace these changes, cause if they don't, we will be gone: or worse yet, we'll do it without or inspite of them.
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I've lobbied for the movement to try and break from the patterns that have become such a miserable failure. It took me about twelve minutes on the inside to recognize that if just did what the guy in front of me did, i was doomed to the same outcome.
This is commendable that you have realized these facts being in the position you are in. The biggest problem I see we have, is getting a member who believes the way you do, into office, or better yet, keeping him or her in office. Without enlightened individuals in the national office, the lower positions are so predetermined and structured, a member with new ideas isn't going to have a chance. The one bright light is; I meet more informed members every day! So I know there is hope!
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Scott, no offense brother, you are wrong. They already have changed. We all are.
No offense BP, but you're wrong.
No-one has changed here. The games' rules have changed. Instead of playing it on the inside the machine has been forced to play it on the outside. I can tell you there is no sincerity with which the little tidbits of information are being doled out and they are well screened before they hit the P.S.
If I had to guess, I'd say they think it's a matter of biding their time before it'll all go away. I am positive they spend alot of time clicking their heels together trying to get back to Oz.
Would be members can be surprisingly top down in their thinking too. We've had two recent visitors to the Borders Union site, one who thought the site was a sham and possibly a company front because of the lack of "authoritative union voices", and another who refused to share info about his organizing drive with other employee organizers because he thought that "grassroots consensus building" was a "waste of time" and the international should handle everything.
The first guy actually declared at one point that he was a marketing expert, we needed a slogan and a jingle, and he was going to take charge of the organizing drive and I had the option of "riding easy or riding alone"!
"Gimme a C, a bouncy bouncy C!"
-Martin Short
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needed a slogan and a jingle
Sounds like he has been in retail too long!
Did he think you were trying to sell bath soap? The fact is, freedom and democracy stand alone and never need a cute jingle or marketing. People will search it out, on their own, when they have had enough of the bureaucratic principles which keep the power from the source.
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The first guy actually declared at one point that he was a marketing expert, we needed a slogan and a jingle, and he was going to take charge of the organizing drive and I had the option of "riding easy or riding alone"!
I hope you dished out the appropriate smack-fu?
nothing so subtle and clever as smack-fu. i took out the hammer. apparently, i can be counted on to do that. still workin on it.
All in all I'd say those are some fantanstic proposals 1518
Of course there isn't a chance in hell of 1518 members getting any of them but look on the bright side, it gives the Steelworkers a pretty good starting point when our business reps contract is up and given how much we pay them already I'll bet they get every darn one of them. 